April 18, 2024

Episode #106: Smarter Volunteer Program Assessment 

In this episode of the Volunteer Nation podcast, Tobi Johnson shares insightful tips on how to create smarter volunteer program assessments, without the need for expensive external consultants. Tobi discusses the importance of learning from assessments to grow volunteer programs and shares her step-by-step plan for performing a DIY program audit.  
Tobi also discusses the importance of learning from assessments to grow volunteer programs and shares her step-by-step plan for performing a volunteer program assessment, discussing how to involve your volunteers, the talking points to include and much more.  

Program Assessment – Episode Highlights 

  • [05:30] – Understanding Volunteer Program Assessments 
  • [08:16] – Deciding When You’ll Conduct Your Assessment 
  • [11:07] – Involving Your Volunteers  
  • [11:37] – Developing Talking Points for Stakeholders 
  • [12:44] – What to Include in Your Assessment 
  • [18:19] – Putting a Plan Together for Execution 

Program Assessment Quotes from the Episode

“By reviewing your program on, maybe an annual basis, you’ll have the opportunity to identify your greatest challenges and form a plan to address those that may have the greatest impact on future success.” 

“Even when you’re developing a survey, getting volunteers involved in helping and define that survey and design those survey questionnaires is really helpful. I like volunteers to drive the process if possible. You’ll just get more honest results.” 

About the Show

Nonprofit leadership author, trainer, consultant, and volunteer management expert Tobi Johnson shares weekly tips to help charities build, grow, and scale exceptional volunteer teams. Discover how your nonprofit can effectively coordinate volunteers who are reliable, equipped, and ready to help you bring about BIG change for the better.

If you’re ready to ditch the stress and harness the power of people to fuel your good work, you’re in exactly the right place!

Contact Us

Have questions or suggestions for the show? Email us at wecare@volpro.net.

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Episode #106 Transcript: Smarter Volunteer Program Assessment 

Tobi Johnson: Welcome to another episode of the volunteer nation podcast. I’m your host, Tobi Johnson. And I want to talk about smarter volunteer program assessment today. You know, I’ve done a lot of DIY audits as well as assessments of some of my client’s programs and practices. And I want to share a few of my top tips because it can be very overwhelming and sometimes even something we kind of think we don’t have the chops to handle. 

Or We think we must hire a very expensive external consultant to come in and evaluate our volunteer programs or our volunteer strategies. And then that stops us from doing anything at all. And, you know, we’ve got to have this type of learning and data and analysis to continue to grow. And so, I’m hoping that today I can demystify the process a little bit. 

Now, a couple words. I have been traveling quite a bit. We’re in our fourth transitional living. We had a flood, for those of you who are not following, we had a flood back in January, my husband and I, which disrupted my business operations. So those of you who are waiting for the volunteer management proper support to come out, I am working on it. 

I am squeezing it into all the other things we’re doing which is basically build back a house from the ground up, basically. Well, not the ground up, from the inside. Uh, it was a complete tear out with mold and all kinds of other things, so that’s making it a little challenging. But we are almost there, and so I’m hoping to get back into my normal routine with podcasting and hopefully have a little bit better sound quality. 

It’s very hard when I’m moving from room to room to room and building to building or wherever we’re staying, hotels, Airbnb’s, family homes, wherever we’ve been. It’s very hard to control sound quality. So, thank you for bearing with me on that. A second thing I want to mention is just, a note of gratitude to those of you who are longtime listeners and welcome. 

If you’re new, I want to welcome you too. But you know, I’ve had some conversations with people lately where they’ve said they’ve been a longtime listener of the pod and it always, I don’t know why it blows me away. It does. So, I just want to thank you all for continuing to listen. You know, the pod is a labor of love and I like to share as much as I can of value to you and help you just keep your confidence up, keep your spirits up, but also, you know, get some good tactics going. 

You know, I’ve been in the business for a long time. I’ve been in nonprofit since I left graduate school and even before then. So, it’s been many years since I’ve been working in nonprofits and so this is sort of a culmination of everything I’ve learned. Now the third thing I want to talk about before we get started is have you signed up for our upcoming free webinar, How to Become an Irresistible Magnet for Today’s Volunteers? 

Have you signed up for that yet? If not, what are you waiting for? We have such an awesome way that we are going about this webinar. What we’re doing is we’ve created an assessment. So hence the topic today, but we’ve created an assessment using a tool called ScoreApp, and we’re giving it away to webinar participants, an excerpt of it. 

The full assessment will be available shortly for our viewers. paid volunteer pro member community, but also this assessment, we’re going to give out an excerptive version of that assessment and the results are going to drive the content. So, I’m going to tailor my content based on the top gaps or challenges that are identified in the assessment. 

And if you’re already registered, fantastic. This week you’ll get a link to that assessment via email. And we’ll remind you to take the assessment before the webinar, obviously before, otherwise I can’t be responsive to you. So that’s a cool thing to be part of. We’ve got two choices for webinars are happening. 

The same webinars are happening on two different dates, April 16th or April 18th. 18th. And you know, hey, I’m going to be tailoring my content to the results of your responses using our new baseline volunteer strategy success path assessment. If you want my solutions to your challenges, go ahead and register. 

You can go to volpro.net/magnet to save your spot. And again, look for Subsequent emails will send you a link to that assessment and you’ll be able to score yourself on five pillars, our most important pillars or phases of volunteer engagement. Cool. 

Okay, so let’s get going. Let’s talk about your Smarter Volunteer Program Assessment and what to include. DIY program assessments are a simple way to evaluate where you are and create a concrete plan for where you’re going. By reviewing your program on, you know, maybe on an annual basis, you’ll have the opportunity to identify your greatest challenges and form a plan to address those that may have the greatest impact on future success. 

So, it’s all about focus, right? Well, obstacles are part of our daily lives. An audit can also help you identify what’s going right so you can double down on those approaches. So many of us think about program assessments as something we’re trying to find things that are wrong. And I always remind people that we’re also trying to find things that are going well. 

So, we can start to lean into those things and replicate those things and share those things with others. You know, this will help you share best practices within and outside your organization to expand the quality of services and the engagement of volunteers conducted by everyone. So, I always liken program assessment to fact finding and really a fact-finding mission to find what’s going right over what’s going wrong. Certainly, we’re going to find some areas that need improvement, but you also want to celebrate your wins, right? So, the goal when you do program assessment is to build a plan for that assessment that saves you time, gets you the actionable information you need, and doesn’t cost a lot or take forever to complete. 

You know, some of these program assessments can go on and on and on and I think you know, back in the day, maybe we had this stomach for months and months and months of assessment and spending lots of money with a consultant and all that good stuff. But I think now, you know, we’re leaner. After COVID, we’ve got to work leaner. 

And most of us just don’t have the time or energy to go into something that, you know, to that extent. And it’s not necessary. What you need is quick actionable information. Now, the deal with an assessment versus ongoing monitoring is that you’re really taking time out to do a more comprehensive view. So, it’s not just quick and dirty. 

It’s not just like, I’m going to check it out today and I’m done. It’s going to take you a little bit of time because you’ve got to do that comprehensive assessment. But I’ll talk a little bit later about what you might want to include in your assessment. But let’s just start with a step-by-step plan.  

Really simple. I like to keep it simple here. So, the first step is really. To decide when you will conduct your volunteer program assessment and how you will get approval from leadership. Anytime you’re going to do an assessment, you really do want to let your leadership know whether it’s your supervisor or somebody further up the food chain. 

It’s just important for people to know what you’re up to because assessment information can get out and sometimes it’s not always pretty, sometimes it’s great. But sometimes we find issues just wanting to let people know what you’re doing doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it, though, and you want to pinpoint a date for sharing your results, and then you can work backward from that date to set a project start date. 

You know, I’d give yourself at least a month of gathering data, maybe six weeks if you’re going to do surveys and you really want to make sure you have your boss’s buy in, but also, and if you’re an executive director who’s listening, get your board on board and set a date for when you want to have those results ready to share. 

And that’ll help you work backward and set a good timeline for yourself. If you want to know more about the difference between the status quo and exceptional volunteer engagement, check out Volunteer Nation episode 104, the Wow! Volunteer Experience, and this will give you some ideas about, just some broad brushstrokes about, you know, how far off we are right now. 

Also, that episode can help educate others about, you know, what volunteer engagement is, exceptional volunteer engagement looks like right now. So, check that out. That’s just a few episodes ago. So, if you scroll in your podcast player, you should see it come up. Okay, let’s go into step two of smarter volunteer program assessment. 

You need to decide how you will involve volunteers. Now if you’ve been listening to me at all over the past, you know, couple of years, this is a hundred episodes, hundred plus episodes. And if you’re a volunteer pro member, you will know, or if you’ve been in my training, you will know that I’m a huge fan of involving volunteers in anything that will impact them. 

And certainly, the results of an assessment will impact them because decisions will be made about making change, right? You want to decide, are we going to just involve volunteers to via, you know, to give us information via survey, or are we going to involve them at a deeper level? Are we going to include focus groups, interviews, et cetera, or are we going to really form a leadership role for them to be involved in guiding the assessment, like an audit committee? 

And I strongly recommend that. I feel like even when you’re developing a survey, getting volunteers involved in helping and define that. survey and design those survey questionnaires is helpful. So, step two, you really want to decide to what extent volunteers are going to be involved. And I always lean into deep involvement. 

I like volunteers to drive the process if possible. You’ll just get more honest results. I’m just saying. I’ve trained volunteers to do DIY program assessments where they did, they led and conducted the entire assessment. The volunteer program manager was just there to provide support. And what a brave person they were, or people they were, it was multiple groups. 

Step three, a smarter volunteer program assessment. develop talking points for various stakeholders. So, you’re going to have to shop this idea, or at least get people excited about the idea that there’s an assessment, there’s going to be a report coming, so that people, number one, participate in it, and number two, are eager to hear your results. 

So, if, for anybody who’s interested in the project, either as a participant, a survey participant, or somebody reading the final report, you want to develop some top line talking points and you want to just start sharing them over and repeatedly. Hey, we’re in the process of this. You can expect a report at this time. 

Here’s why we’re doing it. Here’s what we’re going to do with the information. So, you keep communication open. Again, it’s a part of change management, right? Because you want to let people in, keep them in the loop early and often. And you may feel like you’re repeating yourself, but you’re not. Most people aren’t hearing or reading everything you put out. 

So, you want to have those talking points. You don’t, not just develop them, but share them. Step four for a Smarter Volunteer Program assessment is to decide what you will explore in your volunteer survey. So, you know, if you think about, you know, why you’re asking questions of volunteers. What pain points do you need to better understand? 

What data points would you like to benchmark now and maybe track in subsequent surveys? So, you know, I always think of any volunteer assessment, program assessment should include some type of feedback from volunteers. Uh, now that survey could be a questionnaire. Okay. But a survey could also be a focus group or interviews. 

So, there’s lots of ways, when you think of the word survey, it’s not really, we equate survey with questionnaire, but they’re not always the same. A survey could be all kinds of ways of gathering data from volunteers in different manners. So, what are you going to explore in terms of getting feedback and perceptions from volunteers? 

If you’re feeling a little uncertain about designing surveys, check out Volunteer Nation episode 72, Volunteer Surveys, Are You Making These Mistakes? And I will give you my top tips on developing surveys, which I’ve been doing for a while now. So, I’ve got a few, I’ve got a few up my sleeves. Step four, of smarter volunteer program assessment. 

You want to decide whether you will also survey coworkers and volunteer leaders. Do you want to segment different groups and get perception information from those different groups? Is it people who supervise volunteers? Is it your leadership’s perception of volunteers? Is it your board’s perception of volunteers? 

What Challenges or perceptions do you need to better understand from a variety of groups, community partners if volunteers are working with them? All kinds of things and people you want to understand. What supports do you already provide for some of those stakeholders? And what do you want to assess in terms of the supports you provide them, or what challenges, what pain points do you want to evaluate or just explore? 

And what data points would you like to benchmark now and over time? I always, when I’m developing a survey, think to myself, am I going to ask this question again? Or what question is what I want to ask in the survey that I want to ask again and track trends over time. And remember, you need at least three data points to create a trend. 

So, you got to ask more than once, and you don’t want to change the question next time, or the data won’t necessarily be comparing apples to apples. So, when you’re developing your surveys, you need to be a little bit purposeful. So, you’re deciding not only what am I going to volunteer or how am I going to gather data from volunteers, but also am I going to gather data from other people about the volunteer effort? 

All right. So let me get back to you after the break and I’m going to share some more tips on how to create a smarter volunteer program assessment. So, let’s pause for that quick break for my top tips and we’ll be right back. So don’t go anywhere.  

If you’re enjoying this week’s episode of Volunteer Nation, we invite you to check out the Volunteer Pro Premium Membership. This community is the most comprehensive resource for attracting, engaging and supporting dedicated high impact volunteer talent for your good cause. Volunteer Pro Premium Membership helps you build or renovate an effective, what’s working now, volunteer program with less stress and more joy. So, you can ditch the overwhelm and confidently carry your vision forward. 

And it’s the only implementation program of its kind that helps your organization build maturity across five phases of our proprietary system. The Volunteer Strategy Success Path. If you’re interested in learning more, visit volpro.net/join 

Okay, we’re back with my top tips for what to include in your DIY volunteer program assessment. And I’m at step six now, but step one, let’s review, was to decide when you will conduct your program assessment. What’s the date you’re going to release it and work backwards, making sure you’ve got approval from leadership. Step two was to decide how you will involve volunteers. Will they lead the effort? Will they just be providing their feedback, et cetera? 

Step three is to develop some talking points so you can talk it up. Make sure people participate. People are down on what they’re not up on. And so, it’s a real change management strategy to be very transparent about what you’re doing so that you can build buy in early on for change. Right? So, you’re baking in change or buying for change. 

Step four was deciding what you will explore in your volunteer survey, and remember, volunteer surveys can be different things. They don’t have to be a questionnaire necessarily, it can be a focus group, it can be an interview, all kinds of ways to gather information.  

Also, deciding whether or not you’re going to gather perception information from coworkers or leadership or your board or community partners, anybody who comes in contact with your volunteers or has an opinion about your volunteers, it might be important to know because maybe they have decision making power on resources, for example, or future intention around volunteers. 

And we want to know that sometimes. All right let’s talk about step six of Smarter Volunteer Program Assessment. Set a plan to use this program audit and create a program audit checklist, I should say, or tool to assess the relevant elements of your volunteer program or strategy. Now this kind of goes back to step number one and getting buy in from your boss. 

You don’t want to just freewheel your volunteer program assessment. You don’t want to just freewheel it. You don’t want to just say, you know what, we’re going to do surveys and we’re going to do this and that. There’s no checklist that you’re checking against, right? You need to establish what that is. What are you evaluating exactly? What is your research project? You know, you got to know what exactly are we assessing? 

It’s not free for all. We’re not trying to assess every nook and cranny. How will you methodically work through each checklist? What steps will you take to actively reduce bias as well? So, you need to know what that elephant looks like. What are you trying to understand? What’s inside the scope of work and what’s outside the scope of work? 

And in addition, how are you going to reduce bias? So, you know, one way to reduce bias is to have a team develop this checklist versus just you. Another way to reduce bias is to have more than one person doing the assessment, right? So, there’s some different ways to add, when I say reduce bias, all I mean is add multiple perspectives so you’re not relying only on one. 

Another way to reduce bias is just to simply have other people look at your preliminary data and give you their perspective on what they see before you even tell them a thing about what you see. So, lots of perspective, reducing bias is just bringing in different perspectives about what to research in your program assessment, but also how to evaluate or interpret is a better word I would say, the data that you collect. 

So, you’re wondering, you know, well, what is she talking about? What are the things we should consider in this checklist that we create or our program audit checklist? If you’re a volunteer pro member, we have a DIY program audit training inside the video vault. We also have a checklist that has about eight different domains.  

If you’re interested in that and you can’t find it, go inside the community and just ping me and I’ll help you find it. But we have a spreadsheet that scores itself. That’s an audit checklist. That’s sort of a preliminary, but the next iteration of that is our full volunteer strategy success path checklist that we’re working on right now. 

And again, if you sign up for our webinar coming up, you will get access to an excerpted version. And if you remember, it’s an early version, because you’ll get the full version a little bit later this month. That’s just using our model for how we think volunteer engagement should happen in organizations. 

What are the key deliverables, those kinds of things. But there’s other things you should also be looking at. So they might be, as I’ve spoken already about, volunteer perceptions, employee perceptions. So how do they feel, think. What do they know about what you do? You may be reviewing for your program assessment, your outcome metrics. 

And if you’re a little bit shaky on outcome metrics, check out Volunteer Nation episode 36, five nonprofit KPIs your volunteer program should be tracking. Outcome metrics, that’s another one of my nerdy areas that I’m interested in, and I’ve been working on since the beginning of time. I started my nonprofit career working in employment and training. 

And we had outcomes metrics in that sort of subsector of the nonprofit sector for years. You know, those, those metrics, we were big on metrics early on in, in employment and training. So, I kind of cut my teeth on learning how to develop and create and follow and track program metrics and program performance. 

So that’s a good, uh, episode to check out and just learn a little bit more about KPIs or key performance indicators. All right, back to what would we assess? So, volunteer perceptions, employee perceptions, outcome metrics, you might look at your program risk management and review your program policies If you have developed a risk management plan and developed some policies, you might want to go back and review how are they working, what’s going well, what’s not. 

If you’re a volunteer pro member, you know, or you may not know, that inside the community we have a full training on how to conduct a volunteer risk assessment and prioritization process as well as A template for your risk management plan, et cetera, et cetera. So, but if you already have that or you’re looking to wade into that, consider joining us but also look at what you’ve already done and review it. 

Another thing you might want to consider is benchmarking against others. I think in last year’s volunteer management progress report, we had some benchmark metrics you might Benchmark yourself against. You might conduct a communications audit as part of your program assessment. So that means looking at all aspects of all channels of communication, like your website, your social media, your email marketing, all that good stuff. 

I do these for my volunteer recruitment accelerator clients. do a pretty deep dive into all areas of how they are communicating with the public in terms of attracting talent to their organization. You can look at your volunteer recruitment pipeline conversions. So, what are the micro conversions at every step of your new volunteer journey? 

So how many volunteers come to your website? complete your application, how many who complete your application show up for training, how many people who show up for training become active. There are all kinds of different ways to cut this, but it depends on your organization and your journey, your volunteer journey, but you can track these micro conversions and figure out where people are getting stuck. 

So that’s a, it’s worthwhile. You can also look at your training evaluations for your new volunteers or your in-service training for volunteers and see if there is anything that’s coming up trend-wise that you should be looking at and improving on. And if you’re not doing any training evaluations, it’s time to have at least a, in a post training quick training evaluation of people’s perceptions and what they found most valuable about your volunteer training. 

And then the final thing you might consider is your budget spent. So, what budget has been allocated for volunteer services? At what point in the year have you burned through your budget? And what areas are you missing budget on? So, just a full sort of fiscal analysis. of the economy of your volunteer efforts, right? 

It’s very, you know, things don’t get done if we don’t have money to do it. Even though we bring volunteers on, and volunteers do not ask to be paid, there is still a budget being spent. on this activity. Even if you don’t have a paid volunteer coordinator or only have a part time volunteer coordinator, there is still budget being spent. 

Sometimes it’s buried and hidden within the organization’s budget. So, it may be time to ferret out those different line items and what that budget spends are and then decide whether it’s adequate. And it might inform future funding requests, grant proposals, etc. So, it’s a good thing to look at. 

So those are just some things you might include in your checklist for volunteer program assessment. Of course, if you’re a volunteer pro member, you want to check out our DIY audit tool. And you would want to take our full comprehensive volunteer strategy success path assessment when it’s ready. 

And you’ll be able to score yourself and continue to do it over and repeatedly, maybe every quarter, seeing how you’re growing your program. So. The final step I wanted to cover today was deciding who, when, and with whom you will share the preliminary assessment results and the final report. Now those are two different groups of people often. 

The preliminary assessment is sort of to get feedback. to have the report vetted before it goes public. Those kinds of things are happening preliminarily. And then who are you going to send the final report to? Now, number one on your list should be your volunteers, right? I mean, your volunteers, there’s nothing better than being a volunteer. 

transparent about what you’ve assessed, where you found strengths and opportunities for growth, and what you plan to do about it. Now, any final report should have a bulleted list of some of the things you plan to do. Now, some of those things may be reliant on resources like people, budget, etc. And you may not know if you have the resources yet. 

So, in your final report, you can say, we will continue to assess. the viability of doing X, Y, Z. That also helps sometimes it’s kind of a sneaky way to build. Now, just between you and me, okay, this is a sneaky way to build buy in for a particular initiative. Just put it in your report that, you know, if we get the budget or people resources to get this done, we would love to get this done. 

Now, if there’s some popularity around that effort. or direction you want to head based on the results, then maybe you’ll be more likely to get some resources for it. I’m just saying, gang, I’ve worked in nonprofits for a long time. You got to do what you got to do, right? To get your resources, to get things to happen. 

Now, I’m assuming that you are being an ethical person in your evaluation. That the things that you want to do are the things that are best for your organization’s mission and best for volunteers. Your organization’s mission always comes first. It comes first and primary over everything else. And so you got to make sure that your program assessment recommendations are along those lines. 

Sometimes volunteers prefer something, or they have a grip around something that simply isn’t in the best interest of the organization. And you’ve got to make that call. And the call is the organization’s mission. So, you’ve got to make that call. But you have got to be a little bit savvy when you’re thinking about rolling this out. 

Who are you going to share the draft with? Who will have access to the final report? When and how will you share your next steps with volunteers and coworkers? If you share the preliminary report and your boss or whoever the decision maker is, is on board with you, then you can adjust that in the final report. 

And say, yeah, we have plans to do this, and this is what we’re going to do. Now, sometimes, it might be, hey, we noticed this from our assessment, and we don’t know what to make of it and we’ve got to do more study. Now, that doesn’t give you permission to just engage in analysis to paralysis and use, you know, use that as an excuse to because you’re afraid of taking steps forward or making decisions. 

That’s not the same thing. But there are sometimes where data comes in and you’re like, hmm, I don’t know what this means. We’re going to have to, we’re going to have to do some focus groups. I’m going to have to do some deeper listening around this. And there oftentimes, evaluation often brings up more questions than it answers. 

And that’s okay. That’s the nature of research, right? You’re doing it well when you’re raising questions. And so. When you decide how you’re going to share it out, you got to give yourself a little wiggle room to talk it through with people so that when you have a final report, you can give people something solid about next steps, but also some of those next steps may not be completely concrete. 

And that’s okay, too, right? I just want to be able to be transparent about that and, you know, try not to be very wishy washy because people don’t trust wishy washy. They trust concrete, clear information. And so, if you’re working on getting more information on something and say, we’re going to explore what this means, we’re not sure. 

And that’s okay. And these are the other ways we’re going to take steps and act. Okay, I’ve covered a lot today. I hope this has been helpful to you. Just a little bit about program assessment. Of course, I could go on and on about this because this is one of my favorite things. And I’ve been doing it for a while. 

But, you know, remember. That you can do this you don’t have to hire a high priced consultant now certainly if we had lots of budget and lots of time I would definitely recommend that if you have unlimited budget by all means If you have a huge need that you’re like look This is chaos incarnate in our organization when it comes to volunteers and we’ve got to Get somebody else. 

And we need an outside evaluator who has nothing to do with the inside of our organization, who has a quote unquote objective. I would say no one has an objective point of view. We’re all subjective. Everybody has a particular point of view, but more objective. There are reasons to hire an outside consultant, but if you don’t have the time, budget, etc., 

but you still want to understand what’s going on to If you use your assessment as a diagnostic to make changes, then it’s time to do that. So that’s all I got today on that. So, I hope it’s been helpful. I’m going to remind you one more time, if you have not signed up for our free webinar, How to Become an Irresistible Magnet for today’s volunteers, do it because you’ll want to get access to our quick assessment. It’s only 15 questions. It only takes you a couple of minutes and then you get this fantastic report that breaks it down across our five phases of the volunteer strategy success path. You get a score for each one. You get a report, and I will walk through what this means. 

In fact, in the webinar, I’m going to be tailoring my results and my tips to the assessment results. So, I’m not just coming up with general topic information. I have plenty of that, but I’m going to tailor what I say and what the tips I offer and the guidance I provide to your results. So, I think it’s fun. 

It’s a new way we’re going about business around here. So, I hope you enjoy it. All right, everybody. Thanks a lot for joining me today on this episode of the Volunteer Nation. I will be back next week, at the same time, to the same place. And I hope I may be beaming to you from my home office. We’ll see how that goes. 

I got to get that set up. We’re going to see if I can get some good audio going in my office. Anyway. Thanks for joining me and thanks for listening. And if you liked us, I hope you’ll share with a friend. Please rate and review us. That’s the way we show up in the algorithm and other people can find us. 

 All right. Take care, everybody.