117 – Beyond the Big Help Out with Ruth Leonard & Rob Jackson

July 4, 2024

Episode #117: Beyond the Big Help Out with Ruth Leonard & Rob Jackson

In this episode of the Volunteer Nation Podcast, Tobi offers a unique format as she travels to England to present a workshop with the Association of Volunteer Managers, sponsored by Team Kinetic. The workshop, titled ‘Beyond the Big Help Out: How to Recruit Your Volunteer Dream Team with a Solid Plan for Action,’ focuses on volunteer recruitment, creating volunteer personas, and effective messaging strategies. 

Tobi shares insights from participants and hosts a debrief session with Ruth Leonard and Rob Jackson. Key discussions include the universality of volunteer management challenges, the importance of people-focused approaches over processes, and leveraging modern marketing strategies to boost volunteer engagement.  

Big Help Out – Episode Highlights

• [00:36] – Volunteer Nation on the Road: England Workshop 
• [04:04] – Key Takeaways from the Workshop 
• [08:03] – Participant Insights and Experiences 
• [13:19] – Debrief with Ruth and Rob 
• [21:21] – Takeaways from the Big Help Out 
• [22:21] – Building Relationships with the Comms Team 
• [23:25] – Audience Engagement and Surprises 
• [24:16] – Validating and Learning from the Event 
• [26:10] – Key Takeaways and Audience Interaction 
• [28:56] – Challenges and Opportunities in Volunteer Management 
• [32:36] – The Importance of People in Volunteer Management

Helpful Links

• VolunteerPro Membership Community 
• Episode #014: New Volunteer Vision with Rob Jackson 
• Association of Volunteer Managers  
• Rob Jackson Consulting 
• Advancing the Profession Podcast 
• Connect with Rob on LinkedIn 
• Connect with Ruth on LinkedIn 
• Volunteer Involvement: An Introduction to Theory and Practice
• TeamKinetic 

Contact Us

Have questions or suggestions for the show? Email us at wecare@volpro.net.

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Episode #117 Transcript: Beyond the Big Help Out with Ruth Leonard & Rob Jackson 

Tobi: Welcome everybody to another episode of the Volunteer Nation podcast. I’m your host, Tobi Johnson, and today I’m going to offer something that’s just a little bit different than our usual fare. I have had the opportunity to travel to England. and present a workshop with the Association of Volunteer Managers, sponsored by Team Kinetic, and with the help of my friend Rob Jackson. 

And I thought while I was there, and they were game for it, so we went ahead and did it, I thought we would talk about the event a little bit and ask some of the participants what their key takeaways were, and then maybe have a debrief afterwards about what we learned, what we realized, what our key takeaways were. 

So, it is Volunteer Nation on the Road doing live, well it’s not live, it’s recorded, but we were on the ground just kind of making it happen. And I really enjoyed this way of recording. I have a little portable recorder now, kind of fancy, that can record when I’m out in the field. I’m really thinking about doing more of this as I move forward, just to offer you a little bit of interesting takeaways and insights from people around the world when I’m traveling and talking to folks. 

It’s just kind of an interesting way to bring in more voices into the pod. So, if you like it, I hope you’ll give me a comment. Let me know. And for those of you who participated when I was at the event, thank you for your comments and being part of the show. So, I want to kick it off a little bit with a little bit of context before I share some of the other takeaways from the event. 

The event was called Beyond the Big Help Out – How to recruit your volunteer dream team with a solid plan for action. I did a full day workshop on volunteer recruitment, how to strategize, how to decide and focus on an ideal volunteer you hope to attract, how to build out messaging, where to put that messaging to great effect, and then we focused a little bit on onboarding at the end of the day. 

And it was such a fun event. We had a packed house. It was sold out. It was fantastic. I got to meet a lot of wonderful people, including my biggest fan, Rach. Shout out to Rach. I’m sure she’s driving her car right now, freaking out. She came to the event with a homemade t shirt, a Volunteer Nation t shirt with my face on it. 

I’m going to say she gets the award for biggest fan out there in the world. So, Rach, this is a shout out to you. I know you’re, probably listening right now, cracking up. So just hats off to you and your chutzpah. She’s a smart, focused lady, who is taking action, getting traction in her volunteering program. 

So, a couple of things I also wanted to shout out to Ruth, Rob, Chris, and Terry for all their support setting this up, um, with the logistics and bringing me to this. the UK for the first time. Just wanted to give them a little shout out and a little bit of love. You’ll hear from Ruth and Rob a little bit later today in this podcast. 

And then I also interviewed Chris in another episode. So, a couple of key takeaways for me just before we break into some of the insights from our participants. One thing is that I really realize more and more that as leaders of volunteers around the world and people who care about volunteerism, we are more alike than different. 

You know, we often think that, you know, infrastructure may be different, funding may be different, our causes might, might be different, our impact areas, the kinds of volunteers we get involved, but around the world, whether it’s, you know, you know, talking to people one on one or reading people’s challenges in our volunteer management property report survey results, I just see over and over again, and this gets reiterated to me all the time, that we are more alike than different and that You know, really helps us understand that as a field of practice, there are challenges that are universal. 

And I think we should not feel alone because these challenges are universal, and they are endemic to what we’re trying to get done. When we have challenges, not only are they universal, but they’re also not a value judgment on those of us who are struggling with those challenges. Because if they’re universal, it’s more about the things we’re trying to do than it is about us. 

We, those who are trying to do them, right? So, there are certain specific challenges that crop up in our field that, you know, we just must accept as part of the work. Now that doesn’t mean that we can’t find new strategies and innovations and be more focused. And that’s what beyond the big help out was all about. 

Now, Ruth will tell you a little bit about the big help out when we have our conversation later, but suffice it to say, it was an episodic, a giant mobilization of episodic volunteering and, and really longer-term volunteering too in the UK. And so, we wanted to talk about what happens afterwards. How do you continue to mobilize communities and how do you continue to keep people coming back? 

And so that’s what our workshop was all about. So, for today’s episode, here’s what you’re going to hear. First, you’re going to hear some takeaways from some of the participants. Some of what they thought was the most important thing they, they were learning. Now I will say they were interviewed mostly around lunchtime and Rob Jackson, uh, my colleague in, in England was, asking people what their key takeaways were. 

They hadn’t yet heard the second half of the content. So, we were focusing a lot on building out a volunteer persona or an ideal volunteer about messaging and those kinds of things. And then overall, what’s a volunteer recruitment strategy? What does that look like? So, there’s a lot about the beginning part of the day. 

So just, just know that. But there’s some lovely insights people shared. And then the second half is Rob and Ruth and I just having a debrief after the training and talking about what we realized. And so, you’ll, you’re in for a treat because Ruth and Rob are very well versed in volunteerism, have lots of insights. 

And I will also, hopefully, fingers crossed, have Ruth on the podcast as well to talk about, she has a book on, on volunteerism that we might want to talk about. So, Anyway, so that’s just a quick kickoff and overview of today’s episode. It’s, it’s different than what we usually do, but I like the format and I’m kind of interested in doing this kind of voice of the people, getting out in the community and asking people to share their insights. 

I kind of like it. I think I might do more of it, but, uh, let me know, post, post in the comments. Let me know. Do you like it this way? All right. So, thanks for joining me today and enjoy this episode with our friends in the UK. Thanks everybody.  

PARTIPANT TAKEAWAYS 

Alex: I’m Alex McLemmon and I work over at Bolton Library and Museum Services. I lead the volunteer team over at the library and museum services in that town.  

Rob: Fantastic. So, what are you getting out of today? 

Alex: I think it’s been useful looking at different approaches to volunteering and thinking about natural people volunteering. I’ve been finding it’s been useful looking at, um, uh, what motivates a volunteer and looking at attitudes and opinions and activities rather than just looking at demographics of a volunteer and building an archetype of volunteer was a useful activity. I found it’s also been useful to have that opportunity to connect on a face-to-face level with people from across the country at this event. So, thanks very much to the team.  

Hilary: So, I’m Hilary and I work at Good Things Foundation, which is a digital inclusion charity, and I’m the volunteer manager. I manage volunteers, but I also do a lot of work with our strategic partners who want to find organizations for their staff to volunteer in as well. 

Today, I’m also really enjoying being back in the room. We’re having a lot of good conversations with other volunteer managers and that sharing is always important, isn’t it? But for me, I think the one thing I’m taking away from today is that Volunteer recruitment isn’t really recruitment, it’s marketing. And if you start thinking with a marketing mindset and really trying to hone in on who you’re trying to attract and why, you’ve started to solve a problem.  

Nancy: I’m Nancy, I’m Nancy Elkins and I’m from SAFA, the Armed Forces Charity. The one thing that’s really, well, two things that have really stood out. One is how amazing it is to be back in a room with real people. 

Rob: Is it just?  

Nancy: After the pandemic, it just makes such a difference. But the content-based bit today was really a bit about. volunteer personas. I think it changes that perspective to this is what we want and you as a volunteer will need to kind of help us deliver what we’re going to deliver but we’ve got really kind of prerequisites in terms of what we’re looking for. 

This turns that upside down and looks at what kind of person we’re looking for and how we’re going to attract them based on their skills and interests and experience. So that’s something for us to really think about.  

Tracey: So my name is Tracey Hammond. I’m the, uh, coordinator of volunteers, and I work for CavanomaAlliance.  

Rob: What do they do?  

Tracey: Okay, so they, basically, it’s a very rare condition that is basically people have malformations in their blood vessels in their brain and their spines and it presents stroke-like symptoms. Right. And so, it’s a very small charity but we’ve been 15 years anniversary of this year. 

Rob: Congratulations.  

Tracey: So yeah, the charity and yeah, so that’s who we are.  

Rob: Fantastic. And what are you getting out of this day with Tobi?  

Tracey: Okay, so volunteering. So, our volunteer is a lot of it is peer to peer support volunteering. Right. And what we’re getting out today is actually it’s quite a satisfaction that we’re doing a few things right. 

Rob: Oh, fantastic. Validation is what you do. Well, it’s really good, isn’t it?  

Tracey: Yeah, it’s really, it makes you feel good, because I’m thinking, actually, yeah, we’re doing that already, and we’re doing that already. Yeah, we could improve that slightly there, or there’s a really good tip to think about that. So, every now and again, I’ll write the odd little tip down that I think, actually, yeah, we might be able to improve that. 

Yeah, and then think about the future. Right. Thinking about how we can onboard more, and there are, we are only two members of staff. We are very small. So, volunteers are crucial to us to be, to continue. So that’s what’s great about today. Actually, yeah, we are doing the right thing. And we can do more of the right thing. 

Tony: My name is Tony Lockie and I am the Engagement Volunteer Manager for Inverclyde CVS up in Scotland. Fantastic! So you’ve taken a foray south of the border to be with us today. I have, I have, yes indeed. That’s great, and you’re not the only one.  

Rob: Oh that’s good! So, what are you getting out of today with Tobi? 

Tony: Okay, so I’ve only been in the role for seven weeks and this is confirming the fact that I’ve made the right decision to come into a role like this because of fantastic people here today and I’ve picked up so many hints and tips about what to do. My focus is on young people, getting young people into volunteering. 

And so, everything I’ve learned so far today and going forward is going to be used. Um, there is not a drop out there that I’m not going to utilize. Uh, so it’s been great, but it’s also been good in confirming the kind of thoughts Processes I’ve had in many, many of the aspects I’ve been looking at in far as my strategy, my tactics. 

Tobi: If you’re enjoying this week’s episode of Volunteer Nation, we invite you to check out the Volunteer Pro Premium Membership. This community is the most comprehensive resource for attracting, engaging, and supporting dedicated high impact volunteer talent for your good cause. Volunteer Pro Premium Membership helps you build or renovate an effective what’s working now, volunteer program with less stress and more joy so you can ditch the overwhelm and confidently carry your vision forward. 

And it’s the only implementation program of its kind that helps your organization build maturity across five phases of our proprietary system, the volunteer strategy success path. If you’re interested in learning more, visit volpro.net/join 

INTERVIEW WITH RUTH LEONARD AND ROB JACKSON 

Tobi: Well, hello, Ruth and Rob. Hello. So, we have just finished a really long day. I mean, we’ve been here since 9, well, we got here early, but our workshop was from 9. 30 to 4. 30. For everybody listening, we are here with Ruth Leonard and Rob Jackson, who were key and instrumental in organizing having me come out to the UK for the first time. And we did a workshop called beyond the big help out how to recruit your volunteer dream team with a solid plan for action before we even get started. 

Maybe introduce yourself. We’re just going to do a quick. This is a quick wrap up. You’ll hear some takeaways. You’ve already heard about some takeaways from the workshop itself. But before we get started, let’s introduce ourselves and then if one of you would explain what the big help out was anyway.  

Ruth: Hi, I’m Ruth Leonard. I’m the chair of the Association of Volunteer Managers, which is a membership organization for anyone who involves volunteers in whatever sector they do so across the UK. So, the Big Help Out is a weekend of opportunities for people to help out in their local communities. It’s one of the things that started last year with the King’s Coronation to say, yes, we can all do a little bit within our communities to really start making life better for ourselves and each other. 

And this year as part of Volunteers Week, we’re having it as a three year, a three year, a three-day opportunity to get involved and do something really meaningful but also hopefully quick and easy to get involved with and start making that difference.   

Tobi: What is the organization or entity that? 

Ruth: It’s led by the Together Coalition, by NCVO and by shaping the future, which is an organization bringing together, um, chief execs from various large charities. And they’re the ones who are helping us all to think, yes, how can we really reach out to those?  

Tobi: So, it’s like three days of episodic volunteering, high powered, right? And to give people a taste, maybe if they haven’t volunteered before.  

Ruth: Yes. And it’s not just to be done on those three days. So it’s, Sign up and get involved with things later through the year as well, so it’s fine.   

Rob: Media campaigns focused on those three days because it’s Volunteers Week, but the idea as you said, this could be a start for somebody, but actually we want people to think about volunteering on an ongoing basis. 

Tobi: Right. So, it’s sort of like Giving Tuesday in terms of fundraising.   

Rob: Yeah. We’ll make a difference like we used to.  

Tobi: Right. Okay. Great. And is this going to be an ongoing or is this just the second year and nobody knows?  

Ruth: This is the second year and I believe there’s ideas for, for continuing it into the next couple of years, yes. 

Rob: It’s mainly central government, Westminster government funded, so, as we record this, we’re four weeks away from a general election, so if there is a change of government, it depends if a new government decides to continue to fund it.  

Tobi: Yeah. I hear that. So, Ruth, tell us before we move on a little bit about AVM. What’s the history and what is the mission?  

Ruth: Rob, before I tell you much about the history, as he did last night, because we’re 17 years old. We were 17 yesterday. And the mission is to connect leaders of volunteering together so that they can help people make that difference. We want to be there for anybody, as I say, who involves volunteers, whether they have a volunteer manager in there. 

job title, or whether they are volunteers, whichever sector they come from, from the charity sector, from the corporate sector, from the statutory sector, to really come together, learn from each other about volunteer management and best practices, and also have the opportunity to hear from great speakers such as yourself to help to think, to think of where we could be. 

We’re really keen on having, beginning to have a voice at the, at the table where decisions about volunteering, um, has been made and to, to that. And AVM has linked up with NCVO Volunteering Matters, Sports England, NAVCA and DCMS, and Muslim Charity Foundation to help to develop the vision for volunteering within, within England. AVM does support people from across the UK. It’s not just England based.  

Rob: Yeah. So if you’re from, if you’re in North America, then Alive or VMPC.  

Tobi: Yeah, exactly. AVMC equivalent body. Yeah. Great. And I’ll link. Lots of links in the show notes. Vision for volunteering. I can link to that as well. Thank you. Yeah. So, Rob, introduce yourself. You’ve been on the pod before. I’ll link to Rob’s interview.  

Rob: Yeah. So, I’m Rob Jackson. I’m the director of Rob Jackson Consulting Limited. So, like Tobi, independent trainer, consultant, itinerant opinion spouter for hire, uh, based in the UK, been working in the volunteering movement for about 30 years, done a bit of work in the US as well. 

So if people haven’t come across me through the podcast, they might have come across me through it’s always reminds me a little bit of that thing in The Simpsons. You know, you might know me from such movies as, you might know me from such conferences as, Marvel points of light, that kind of thing. As Reid said, I was involved in one of the networks that went on to become the Association of Volunteer Managers 17 years ago, so I’ve been a member of AVM since day one. 

I’m really passionate about making sure that we have a strong professional association that not only speaks up for the sector and for volunteer engagement professionals but has got a broad membership. of volunteer engagement professionals. So, we’ve got that credibility. So, yeah, it was great to see so many people, members and nonmembers here today. 

Tobi: Yeah. You had a good mix and a full, we were full, sold out. And it was the first in person you’ve had since prior to the pandemic.  

Rob: Yeah. 50 volunteer engagement professionals in a room after three years of everybody saying nobody will do it again. Nobody will get volunteer engagement professionals in a room in the UK again. 

Tobi: And plus, we were up in the north. For those of you who don’t know the UK, Manchester is quite north.   

Ruth: Most activity, I wouldn’t say most, but a lot of activity happens around London and in the south. We certainly heard from a couple of people today saying thank you for not doing it in London.  

Rob: So, I think that’s one of the things. We have people travel down from Scotland and people come from, from all over. So, and that was, I don’t know if we’re going to get into it, but that for me, was kind of one of the highlights. And as you know, Tobi, one of the reasons why I was so keen that we, we kind of got you here with it being your first in person gig in the UK and getting people in a room because there’s a, there’s a way that people learn and network in person that isn’t the same as how we learn and network online. 

Not saying we shouldn’t do it online, but in person brings something different. And I think everybody today. got a more powerful experience because they were in the room with each other and you, and they were learning from each other and you. Whereas if we’d have done this on Zoom or Teams, it would have been you giving a lecture and then maybe a few people engaging in a breakout. 

Tobi: Yeah. And, you know, even in Zoom, even if I do a Q and A, it’s usually written. Yeah. And people are popping up between in the, breaks and at lunch people were popping by asking questions, taking selfies, which was funny. But the most interesting thing was the t-shirt with my face on it. I had a super fan here. I was like, what? This is crazy. Rach, if you’re listening, we love you. That’s so funny. So sweet. So creative. So, she’s a really creative, inspirational person. So, it was really fun. But then Rob, you have a podcast. What’s the name of your podcast?  

Rob: So I have the Advancing the Profession podcast, which you’ve been on my podcast. So, we’re not weekly like you are. I admire your commitment. We are as and when Rob Jackson can be bothered to get a group of guests together and interview people. So, we’ve had three seasons in the last three years at various times. So, yeah, it’s always good fun doing them. 

Tobi: Yeah. I will link to it again in the show notes. Yeah. So, let’s talk about today, just kind of some takeaways. So again, we, we call this beyond the big help out. We were hoping that the big help out would launch people into thinking about beyond episodic volunteering. And really, how can we really come up with a framework of attracting volunteers using modern technology, modern strategies and really focusing, you know, my expertise now has been just doing digital marketing since 2015 anyway. And so, I tried to bring some of that marketing expertise to help people have a framework and, and make the argument, not only do the tactic and create the strategy, but, but really be able to advocate in a knowledgeable way inside their organizations. 

Cause you know, inevitably you’re going to have to work with your comms department. You maybe have to work with fundraising, your executives, whoever. And I was putting some things out there that I knew people would have to argue about.   

Ruth: Yeah. I think it’s a really good idea to title it but be on the Big Helper and then your conversations to link about how we work better with the comms team. 

I’m employed by Macmillan and one of the things that we have been able to do because of the Big Helper is to build those relationships with our comms team. And I think that’s the first time we’ve really worked so closely together at getting things that are meeting the needs of our comms team. The new audiences we want to attract through the Big Helper and having this particular session gave us the opportunity to think it’s not just once a year. 

It is something we really need to be thinking around more continuously so that we can build the conversations and recognize how are we talking to our volunteers and really recognizing it’s our volunteers who need to be at the heart of some of the ways that we structure. our communications and our bringing people on board and rather than thinking about this works for me as an organization. 

No, we should be a bit more volunteer centric and as it’s a number of aha moments people going, Oh Lord, yes, we do that. Rather than thinking about that. Yeah, that was powerful.  

Tobi: What surprised you both about the audience today? Of course, You had a sold-out crowd, right? That people would travel. 

There were people from Bristol and if you know the UK, Bristol’s way, people from Cornwall. Yes. Like way down. Aberdeen. Yeah. Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Scotland, way north. So, you had people coming from all over the UK. What surprised you about the group today when you were watching people?  

Rob: I think the kind of distance some people have travelled, I expected most of it was going to be North West, because, you know, you’re saying those places to people who are going to be a predominantly North American audience, which we’re talking in UK terms, travelling two or three hours, which for you guys is nothing, you know, for us is a major big deal. 

So, you know, let’s put that in a little bit of context. Just the fact that people were really, uh, open to the idea of engaging with each other on this. I mean, I’ve had a few people coming and saying, one person came and said, well, what today’s done is validated what I’m already doing. And I always think that’s just as powerful as learning new stuff because it gives you the opportunity to go back with confidence. 

And other people who were saying, do you know, from talking to people, I’ve realized maybe I’m, further ahead than I thought I was on some of this kind of stuff. Other people who recognize that they may be a little bit further behind, but the validation that that’s not down to them, it’s down to their organization holding them back. 

So, you know, when you were talking about, we don’t need to have a big donation, as in the give money button, we need a big volunteer button. That’s going to, you know, everybody in the room is going to fight that challenge with their web team, aren’t they? Because, for exactly the reasons you explained. It’s easier for somebody to give cash than somebody to give time. 

And then I think the other thing that was really good today was people who were just, somebody said to me that what this had done was open their eyes to that whole kind of marketing thing much more. And you know, I’ve been doing this for 30 years. I’ve been guilty of this. We do one recruitment message that appeals to 9-99. 

And then we wonder why it doesn’t work. And I worked for six years in fundraising and saw how fundraisers segment the market, psychographics, demographics, all the kind of stuff you talked about today. And that isn’t just, that kind of isn’t a natural part of how we go about doing things in. involuntary engagement. So, I could see some kind of light bulbs coming on around the room as people were talking about that.  

Ruth: Yeah. I think what I noticed today was the buzz. There were people were talking and engaging and really up for that and asking questions of you and of each other and listening. And I just, I don’t think even back in the day when we did have regular face to face, I’ve never been in a room where there’s so much engagement, even when it was getting quite warm, people were wanting to talk and to learn and to listen. And it almost felt like, oh, have we got to end now?  

Rob: It’s a really good point because usually what you do is you go like you did at the end. What were your key takeaways? Anybody got any questions? And there’d be like, typically for a British audience, there’d be complete silence for about 45 seconds. 

Then there’d be a planted question and then the discussion would start. Whereas you are, when any questions, key points, hand, hand, hand, hand, hand, people asking stuff straight away. And again, that’s partly because, you know, it’s you and you’re here and this is an opportunity to kind of engage with you. But I think, again, it speaks to the fact people haven’t had that. 

I think people feel more comfortable in a group of 50 people in a room asking a question than when they do ask a question on a Zoom call of 300 people.  

Ruth: And what I really liked about some of the things that you were doing when you were structuring the conversation was after we were doing our work at the tables, you would say, you know, what were you stuck on? 

I know I’ve noted that down because I really thought that was a great way of opening the conversations, not do a feedback, but what were you stuck on? And that opened up those conversations.  

Tobi: Just for the audience, I presented concepts and frameworks and then folks had a workbook and then we had Flip chart paper on the tables. And we had some breakout sessions where people were doing table work and then putting it on the wall so they could take pictures. And what surprised me, and we didn’t have time, we had 50 people, we had 10 tables. We didn’t have time to have each group debrief, otherwise we would have done about a third of the content. 

So that’s how I, as a facilitator get to the point, right? What’s the point? The point is we want to get you unstuck for anything that you were practicing here that you’re going to want to implement when you get home. So any, not only that, but. Any, anything you learn or anything aha moment and how can you apply this? 

Because we want people to see the bigger picture of volunteer persona, for example, how are you going to apply that? How do you see it for helping you with your strategy? So yeah, absolutely. And I think I was, you know, it’s a long day and you’re hearing me talk the entire day. Now we had breakouts, we had lunch breaks, all that. 

But the third breakout, when we were doing more on strategy, what’s your, what are your marketing channels? What are you going to choose? The fact that people were still in it to win it. They were busting out writing stuff down. You know, sometimes at that point people are like, Oh, I’m tired. 

And people will devolve into at their tables often will devolve into chit chatting about their own organizations and about what they had for lunch and about, do they have kids? And it’s, becomes more sort of social. I always know whether an audience is really in it to win it when stuff starts going up on the flip chart and people reserve time. 

They take resources out of their life to be here. So, I’m always, I’m always grateful when that happens because I know they’re going to start implementing when they get home. Yeah. So, for you, both of you, what was a big takeaway from the content? What was something that you were like either I’m totally in agreement with this, or could be, and don’t feel shy. 

I’m totally not in agreement with this, or this is a, this is a controversial point of view, or just something that, that you thought, this is new to me.  

Ruth: Yeah, I think one of the things that was really, really resonated and was really encouraging, and I think it did with others, was that conversation, recognition that sometimes the biggest barrier is within your own organization or your own institution. 

And that’s actually made me think about where does AVM put its resources to help people with the strength of being able to demonstrate the value of volunteering, the value of the profession. And I think that was a bit that made me think, oh, we’ve really got to do more than that, because that’s the shared experience. 

And I think one of the things that really stuck that with me is because it’s not just in Britain that that’s the case, it’s clearly everywhere that you’ve been working as well, like, yes, yeah, that really, that really struck me as, that’s an area that I think we, we could.   

Tobi: Yeah, our volunteer management progress report always has open-ended comments. There were so many around both lack of support from or understanding from leadership and lack of support from coworkers, not always because they’re unwilling, but because of lack of time, which comes from leadership, making. time, making sure people have enough time. And so, a lot of it always flows up to leadership. 

I always think, for that buy in piece, but it’s such a strong, resonant thing that we were hearing from people in the survey that I thought, you know, I better mention that here and know that they, they will go forward and they will have to advocate because they’re often advocating for new behaviors and people will say they like change, but they don’t like to change when it, and when it messes with their job, right? 

When the comms or the fundraising or the whoever, when you have to start to break down silos, people are going to get grumpy because they have feathered their little nest. They’re happy with it. They don’t want to have to communicate anymore. They don’t want to have to accommodate. They don’t want to have to collaborate. 

So what about you, Rob? I’m going to, I’m going to do two because I can’t follow instructions and only do one. Now, Rob and I, how long have we known each other? We have known each other… 

Rob: 10 years. I think nearly. 

Tobi: 10 years.  

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. 2016 in Florida, I think.   

Tobi: No, I met you before at Points of Life before, I think it was DC Points of Life. 

Rob: Okay, so 2013, so it’s longer than that. Yeah.  

Tobi: 11 years.  

Rob: Yeah.  

Tobi: Wow. Okay. All right.  

Rob: Anyway, Covid time dilation makes it feel like three years ago and 33 years ago, simultaneously, so a macro and a micro level one. Okay, a macro level one. We’ve just had new studies published in the last week or so talking about how organizations are struggling to recruit volunteers. 

And I think at a macro level, you did exactly what I hoped you would do and what I hope I try and do in some of my training, which is saying, you know, yes, that’s the case. But that’s not the fault of the volunteers. That’s down to our organizations and whether we’re making the right offer. And we always look at is that the right offer in the context of the change in the last four years? 

But we know it’s been going on for longer than that. And so, it’s that message off. If you need to, if you want to be successful, you have to put the effort in, you have to plan, you have to do all of this kind of, you’ve got to put the resource in, you know, your diagram where the first three or five stages are all planning focused, which I think a lot of people struggle with because their organization just wants them to recruit volunteers tomorrow. 

The micro level bit of content. Which was a really, really important point was, and it was kind of the back half of the day where you were talking about people and process and, you know, we all know that volunteer management, you know, we’re swamped with processes, we all like a good process. Processes can be really helpful, but actually the people bit of what we do is the reason why most of us got into it. 

It’s the powerful bit of what we do. And certainly, when I talk about AI, It’s the bit that AI is never going to replicate. AI will do the process, it’ll do the data analysis, it’ll help us with all of that. It can never be taken away from the people bit. And I think that message about the people focus, we’re a people business, where people focus is something we need to hear over and over and repeatedly, because it’s powerful. And that is why we make the difference in what we do in this profession.  

Ruth: You’re talking about relationships and community. If I could plug my book, I had a book coming out a couple of years ago with Jürgen Grotz about volunteer involvement and the key thing that comes out in that is that it is all about relationships. So, it was really validating for you to be saying, saying that as well.   

Rob: Because like we were, we were joking before we recorded this, the late, great Susan J. Ellis always used to say, the next bird with it is anybody with a briefcase from more than 30 miles away. So, if you’ve crossed an ocean, you must really know your stuff.  

Ruth and I can say this stuff in the UK and have been for years, but Tobi flies across the Atlantic and says it, and everybody suddenly plays the diction. It works the other way round when I come over your side of the pond, Tobi. 

Tobi: Well, we’ve got to go. My expertise is indeed limited. So well, let’s wrap this up with just, I’d love it on this theme. Something you might add to the conversation of what we talked today about in the training. Is there anything you might add saying, you know, a tip on volunteer recruitment or a piece of advice or something that you know, is in addition to supplemental to something that maybe I forgot to. I know I did not prep them, gang. They’re sitting there, brains are whirring, and they’re like, What? Wait a minute.  

Rob: The bits of our brains that aren’t pouring out of our ears.  

Tobi: Yeah. Or I’ll give you a second option just because, Oh Lord, you know, it’s been a long day. Or what are you most excited about. What do you think, where do you think an opportunity is? Maybe that’s a better question anyway. 

Ruth: So one of the things that I suppose I’m really interested in is involving volunteers or engaging volunteers from a perspective of not necessarily being a professional volunteer manager, to be a volunteer manager and to see some of the skills that are important for us and that you brought out today, making sense in that kind of actual volunteer led way, which I think they do, but I think it’s something around tying all that together. 

I think that could be, and where I think I’d really love this to go to is, notwithstanding the annoying thing about people who come from 30 miles away, I’m there for them. Sorry about that. I think this has been a really important opportunity to spend a whole day with an expert on a particular subject, and it’s almost like a CPD, a continuing professional development opportunity, and I would like us to do more of that and more of that kind of advanced volunteer management, um, opportunities to be.  

Tobi: Yeah, it is more advanced, isn’t it? A beginner would be very overwhelmed. And I will plug my upcoming book. If you’re talking about, now that we’re plugging books. No, because you’re talking about what, how do we, how do we help volunteer leaders? 

I’m writing a book for volunteers to lead. I’ve been, you know, I had the flood of my house and it kind of put the. damper on, but I’m hoping by the fall to have the book released and it’s now volunteer managers, you know, paid volunteer managers can certainly get something out of the book, but it’s not written directly to them. 

It’s directly to volunteer leaders. So, to equip them, because you know, in our volunteer management progress report, we found that only about 5%, as far as we know, and we’re assuming people are reporting correctly, that in their organizations, they’re reporting on an average of 5 percent or less of their volunteer workforce are volunteer leaders. 

So, it’s like, what? You can’t scale that way, unless you clone them. They’re not cloneable, nor are you, at least right now, you know. So, to scale volunteer effort, we must scale volunteer leadership.  

Rob: So the two things that excite me coming out of today, and I might go a little off piece from the original scope of the question. I go back to, and my colleagues on the Heritage Volunteering Group will be crying with laughter or despair as I say this, is that validation of a return to in person events. Yeah. You know, online has their place, we need to keep doing it online, they’re accessible, there’s all kinds of benefits from doing online. 

But sometimes in person adds something, and if you design it with intention, that’s my point has always been design it with intentionality. Don’t just do it online or in person because it’s cheap or we think it’s the right way to do it. Design it intentionally, and this was always designed by the team that put it together at AVM and by you as the main content provider to be an in-person event. 

And that worked as an in-person event, and if we’d have done it as a hybrid or an online, it wouldn’t have worked in the same way. So part of it was. that. The other thing for me was seeing so many people in the room who I know have been working in this volunteer management space for several years, who are continuing to do their development and continuing to see this as a career. 

Because, you know, we know it from the VMPR, findings that there is a growing cohort of people of different ages who see this as a career, who see this as something that they want to invest in rather than volunteer engagement being a transitional thing that then leads you on to a different career path within the sector. 

And there were people here today who I’ve known since before COVID, who it was brilliant seeing as well as new people to the sector coming in and really taking this kind of thing seriously and people who even Invested their own money. They didn’t wait on the organizational budget to pay for this. They invested their own money, which I don’t think we’re always quite so good at as volunteer engagement professionals in their own learning and development. And that really excites me because it’s the potential of the future of our field.  

Ruth: Yeah. That wasn’t off topic, was it?  

Rob: Oh, I don’t think so. 

Tobi: You answered the question.   

Rob: Go on. I was just giving myself insurance in case I went off on one of my long rambles. 

Tobi: Good one, Rob. Yeah. So this has been great. This has been such a great wrap up. It was nice. Rob went around and interviewed folks, got some key Vox Pop takeaways, and I just want to thank you both. me this opportunity to come over to the UK. I came here for some other things. It all worked out. It was fabulous. And just all the work we put in and you put in mostly. And it’s true. 

We did think about, we, at some point in the, first we were like, no, this is all in person. Then at some point midway through, we thought, well, you know, because people were saying, we don’t want to come. Can, can you record it? And I must tell you, I’m glad we decided not to, because it would have been so distracting. 

Ruth: I think it helped to create a circle of trust within this room as well. People were able to be more vulnerable than they might have.  

Tobi: And I don’t really like to be on camera like that all the time. I do need probably a special Be real at some point, but whatever. And yeah, I think having cameras, there’s something about technology that we do need to understand that even, and I didn’t see very many people picking up phones, checking from time to time, but not really. And we must have time away from our devices and from technology and from being watched. So, we can just be who we are. 

Rob: I think people in the room were here to invest in their own learning, whether they paid for it or their organization. And by participating or investing in the learning of everybody else, they will have all have learned stuff from you, but they will have learned stuff from each other. If we’d had 20 people online, they wouldn’t have been as invested in learning in the people in the room.  

Because of them, but because of the barrier that that technology presents. And that for me is what was so powerful about an in person learning experience today. So, I don’t, I don’t want online to go away, but I hope we do more of this kind of thing in future. 

Tobi: Yeah. I think as a facilitator, it’s much easier to feel the sense of the room and where people are and where, where you need to, to move people. Yeah. You can’t, it’s very hard to do that online. You can, we get a pretty healthy in our volunteer pro member events, we get a pretty healthy chat going on and, and folks start to know each other. 

And so, we can, we can approximate that kind of interchange, but you can’t really, really repeat, you can’t replace it. So, it’s been great. It’s been great. Thank you, Tobi. Safe travels and we will see you maybe next time. Awesome. Take care.