151 – Reimagining Nonprofit Membership & Volunteer Engagement with Alice Glenn

February 27, 2025

Episode #151: Reimagining Nonprofit Membership & Volunteer Engagement with Alice Glenn  

In this episode of the Volunteer Nation podcast, Tobi Johnson is joined by Alice Glenn, President of the Association of Junior Leagues International (AJLI). Tobi and Alice delve into innovative approaches to nonprofit membership and volunteer engagement, particularly within associations, chapters, and membership-based nonprofits.  

Alice shares insights into developing volunteer leadership pipelines and modernizing governance models. She emphasizes the importance of aligning volunteer experiences with personal skill development and community impact.  

They also explore the crucial role of advocacy and cross-sector partnerships in addressing community needs, highlighting practical strategies for effective volunteer-fueled advocacy, and share guidance on how to attract and retain committed volunteers while adapting to contemporary challenges.

Nonprofit Membership – Episode Highlights

• [01:27] – Alice Glenn’s Journey and Impact 
• [08:47] – The Importance of Volunteerism 
• [15:23] – Challenges and Strategies in Volunteer Engagement 
• [19:41] – Governance and Membership Models 
• [26:06] – Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in Nonprofits 
• [30:32] – Challenges of Membership-Based Organizations 
• [32:06] – Future of Nonprofit Membership Models 
• [33:44] – Volunteerism and Flexibility 
• [35:31] – Virtual vs. In-Person Engagement 
• [40:30] – Advocacy in Nonprofit Sector 
• [41:47] – Coalitions and Cross-Sector Partnerships 
• [46:28] – Advice for Young Professionals in Advocacy 
• [50:24] – The Importance of Public Policy in Nonprofits 
• [56:05] – Conclusion and Final Thoughts 

Helpful Links

• VolunteerPro Impact Lab Community 
• 2025 Volunteer Management Progress Report – The Recruitment Edition  
• Volunteer Nation Podcast Episode #60: Giving Circles and Collective Philanthropy with Sara Lomelin  
• Volunteer Nation Episode #148: Nonprofit Advocacy 101 – Yes You Can!  
• Volunteer Nation Episode #149: Nonprofit Advocacy Strategies – A Checklist 
• Volunteer Nation Episode #150: Launch a Community-based Advocacy Program in Six Steps 
• Find Alice on LinkedIn  
• Association of Junior Leagues International (AJLI) 

Contact Us

Have questions or suggestions for the show? Email us at wecare@volpro.net.

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Episode #151 Transcript: Reimagining Nonprofit Membership & Volunteer Engagement with Alice Glenn 

Tobi: Welcome everybody to another episode of the Volunteer Nation podcast. I’m your host, Tobi Johnson, and boy, do I have a treat for you. For you, especially those of you who are in membership or chapter or association type nonprofits, this conversation is for you, as well as those of you who really want to see what a high-powered volunteer leader can do, right? Because I’m always, always encouraging you to really lean on and develop volunteer leadership pipelines because our community members have so much talent, have so much skill that there’s just so much they can do. 

And when we work in partnership with them, we can really create miracles in our communities. So let’s get started. We’re going to talk about re-imagining nonprofit membership. and volunteer engagement. And my guest is Alice Glenn today. Alice, welcome. And I’m going to share a little bit about your bio, but welcome. 

Alice: Thank you. I’m so thrilled to be with you, Tobi.  

Tobi: So, Alice Glenn is president of the Association of Junior Leagues International or AJLI. Since joining the Junior League of New Orleans nearly 15 years ago, where she is now a sustainer, Alice has served in a wide variety of leadership positions, beginning as development committee chair. 

She went on to hold several chair positions before becoming president, including community shift chair. Provisional Chair, Membership Evaluation Committee Chair, and Membership Council Director. That is quite a pipeline. She is particularly proud of her work as president, updating her league’s governance documents, including updating membership requirements and creating a set of volunteer leadership core competencies. 

You’re talking my language, Alice. As a member, she’s also proud of her advocacy on behalf of her league to eliminate Louisiana’s pink tacks on diapers and menstrual products, which passed the state legislator in 2019. Go you. Thank you. Thank you. And her work with the Junior League also extends to the Association of Junior Leagues International. 

And as an at large board member, she served as chair of the Issues Committee, C chair of the Fiscal Accessibility Task Force, and as a member of the DEI and belonging committee. So, we’re always talking DEI on the volunteer nation podcast. So, you’re talking my language there as well. I feel like I’m with my people today. 

Alice: I’m so excited. Like there’s not a lot of us that speak this language or enjoy speaking it anyway. So, it’s exciting.  

Tobi: Yeah, it is exciting. Let’s just welcome to the pod, Alice. It’s so great to have you. Oh, thank you. So, tell us a little bit about yourself and the work you do. What do you do, what do you see as your prime sort of focus at the association, as well as how did you get involved in the first place? 

Alice: Sure. Well, let me start by backing up or zooming out a little bit and not that you want to hear like a whole additional bio on my professional background. But one thing that I feel is somewhat unique and that I’ve been really fortunate in my life and my career is that there’s not been a lot of separation for better or worse. 

So, I was a poli sci major in college. I thought I wanted to go into politics. My first job out of college was working on a political campaign, in a governor’s race. here in Louisiana, I quickly learned that politics, right, campaigning was not for me. It’s one, it’s like three or four different cities and a state and a day, and I just didn’t have the stomach for it to tell you the truth, but I started working with the fundraising consultant they had on that campaign and learned a little bit about fundraising. 

So, then I decided that perhaps I could have more impact, not on the campaign and political side. But on the nonprofit side, so I went to work for the United Way of Southeast Louisiana as a campaign manager, you know, skills obviously translate really, really clearly across those two functions, but worked with a number, you know, in that United Way sort of context, a number business leaders here in our community. 

At a really young age, I think I zeroed in on what has really become one of my mantras if you will, which is working at that intersection of government, nonprofit, and business is where the magic happens and really where the impact can happen. Right? And if you’re ignoring or neglecting any one of those things, you’re not maximizing your effectiveness. 

And in the nonprofit context, it’s hard to meet your mission. I think effectively. Kind of fast forward in several different nonprofit agencies. And was engaging with bureaucratic agencies and government officials in various ways, as one does in the course of nonprofit work. And then went out on my own consulting, I thought for a period of time, but one of my clients was going to run for mayor here in New Orleans, decided not to do that. 

He was a member of the state legislature here in Louisiana and asked if I would consider coming on to run his district office instead for his final term. And so, I was quite literally, president of my local junior league here, chair of the board, and then wearing this, this sort of government legislative hat, and then also keeping a small portfolio of consulting clients. 

I was literally in meetings saying, oh, before you go, can I catch you about this other thing? Or in some cases, talking about the same project, right? In different conversations, but with all the same people. And so, what I feel like my role in all of this is, and even now as the chair of the board of a JLI is, as a facilitator, as a convener, as a communicator, and ultimately just as a connector, right? 

And so that’s, that’s what I, that’s what I do. I’m connecting people with projects, with resources, with information, with strategies, but that’s really what it’s about. And facilitating solutions.  

Tobi: Mmm, love it, love it. I just, these past three weeks have posted a three-part series that I’ll link to for folks who are listening, I’ll link to in the show notes, but on nonprofit advocacy, you know, what is it? Can we do it? Can we do any lobbyists? 

Alice: Yes! You should do it. Yes, we can. The IRS is not going to come arrest you or whatever. 

Tobi: I mean, there’s, there are limits and whatnot. I talk about the rules and all, and then I talk about all the different, like, I call it the advocacy continuum from like just people posting and sharing on social media all the way to visiting with legislators and doing like days on the hill and all that. 

There’s so much that nonprofits can do. And I was noting that there was recent research that says 10 years ago, three quarters of all nonprofits did advocacy work and not necessarily advocacy-based nonprofits. And now it’s only about one third. And we sort of like given up on like educating policy makers and decision makers about our work. 

And consequently, it’s easy to make broad claims about whether nonprofits have value in the world. Right. You know, my goal this week’s last week’s podcast was how to set up an advocacy program. If you don’t have one, if you have volunteers, there are your, your, they’re your best advocates because they know your organization so intimately, you know, so we are, we are absolutely talking the same language here. 

And I think in your role, As the chair in your connective role, that’s another thing that people don’t see in their volunteers that they have their own networks and their own connections through their lifetimes, through their professional experience, their private lives, and often they’re willing, if it makes sense, to help the organization expand, you know, exponentially, who they can connect with. 

I think it’s a great point. Why do you, for you, why do you think, aside from those things I just mentioned, why else do you think volunteerism is so important in today’s world in particular? I’m just curious.  

Alice: Sure. Well, that’s a really interesting question, particularly in the context of the Junior League, right? 

It started as one thing, you know, a hundred. 20 plus years ago, and that was in a world where our founder, Mary Harriman, and many of her contemporaries didn’t have a lot of access outside the home. And so found a cause, decided to do something about it. And really the most effective vehicle they had to do that was through volunteerism. 

And really one of the only vehicles they had was through being able to give their free time. That’s what they had. And so as, as that has evolved conceptually and sort of as society has evolved and policy has evolved and all these things, I think it’s a really interesting question to think about in today’s world and particularly here in the U.S 

I think most of your listeners are probably domestic. We’re an international association, of course, so we think a little more broadly. But with that said, I think that one of the One of the challenges that we see as a women’s based organization, right, where we’re really looking at advancing women’s leadership for impact in our communities, right, and that’s through a number of different avenues, certainly volunteerism is one of them, you know, collaboration and then training to actual leadership training. 

But I think we all see as women in our careers that we can. be really prepared. We can be very well educated. We can be smart. We can give as much time and invest as much of ourselves as we can. But at the end of the day, we want to have an impact beyond just that, right? Just beyond those tangible things. 

And I think that the way that I’ve seen over the course of my career, both Paid and unpaid, I guess, volunteering and for profit, if you will, is that I’m, I’m a very sort of mission driven person or project impact driven person. And so being able to find ways outside of my career to affect change in the ways that I want to see. 

It can be done through volunteerism. And I think what’s different is that we don’t all have sort of unlimited time to give anymore. But I think rethinking what volunteering means in a way that doesn’t necessarily mean you give. 10 hours a week and do this, you know, you’re not a cog necessarily in the volunteer wheel, you’re doing something that is going to move the needle in a meaningful way on either the service you’re providing or whatever the impact is that you’re trying to make, right? 

Could be an advocacy, could be in some sort of direct service or, or otherwise. Is, Matters a lot. And I think for us in the junior league, it’s not only what you’re doing for your community, but it’s also how you’re elevating the stature of your membership and your volunteers and elevating the impact that they’re able to make, not just on that project or through your work. Association or affiliation, but then beyond that, too, through that training and leadership development piece.  

Tobi: That is a fantastic combination. I’ve also often recommended that for organizations with young working with young people that youth development and youth leadership is something that it’s a benefit you could offer younger volunteers. 

It’s a value-add people who are in their early career, even teenagers. So, it’s a great combination of service plus leadership development. It makes for a compelling offer when just to help folks. And we do, we do have listeners from all over the world in Australia, UK, mostly English speaking, obviously, but share with folks a little bit more about the junior league and maybe a little bit. 

We’ve talked in the past, we’ve had a guest on who talked about giving circles, Sarah Lomelin, and I’ll link to her interview in the show notes. But how are the junior leagues different? In addition, aside from the leadership development piece, how are they, how is it different than more, a more traditional sort of giving circle. How would you differentiate? 

Alice: My impression of giving circles and certainly the ones that we have here locally is that they’re very focused on convening a group who is able to provide a very specific resource. And then they’re allocating those resources, you know, money usually right in whatever way they choose to do. 

So, what I think is, is distinctive about the junior league is that. While perhaps similar in structure in that it’s a group of women in a community convening, there’s a much broader objective in terms of impact. It’s not just about turning dollars around to likeminded organizations, and so forth. It’s about putting together strategies that address community needs in a meaningful way. 

And so, combining, certainly combining resources, financial or otherwise, with. talent, with expertise, with not just volunteers in terms of like boots on the ground coming to do a project, but also, you know, potentially injecting board members or advisory members. Our members are coming to us in most cases with stature in their community already. 

And so, I think to your earlier comment about how We can amplify issues as volunteers and how we can further impact. I think the Junior League is a really great example of convening a group of likeminded individuals and giving them a problem or letting them identify a community problem or need and then come up with a strategy to address it. 

And that’s going to always, in almost all cases, be a multi-pronged approach. So, I would say that’s the differentiator. And then this concept again that we see. Kind of keep coming back to what I call experiential, like experiential training or experiential volunteering, right? Like you’re learning how to do something by providing the service. 

And so, in some cases, maybe you’re making it a little more complicated or you’re noodling through the best way to do it, but you’re learning. skill through the service that you’re providing. And that’s really part of the kind of the secret sauce, I think, with the work that we do, is that you’re not only delivering impact, but you’re also then creating sort of the environment where it can be perpetuated in ways that go beyond just that, that project or that kind of immediate. 

Tobi: Yeah. Right? Yeah. That’s fantastic. We just did an industry report. We do a volunteer management progress report every year. And we found that a lot of leaders of volunteers were challenged by attracting committed volunteers. And as you mentioned, what worked years ago doesn’t work now, and people are, feel like people are even busier, their free time is limited, and sometimes it doesn’t meld well with what the organization really wants. 

So, from your perspective, how do you think nonprofits should rethink membership and volunteer engagement models to align? With today’s sort of fast paced world and, and multiple priorities, everyone’s juggling in their lives.  

Alice: Well, I think the first thing is moving away from a sort of a time-based expectation of volunteerism. 

Go to a place from this time to this time and do the thing. I think that works for some people still, but, but, Less and less frequently, I think that’s, that’s the model that works, and I think that’s, it’s just antiquated at this point, based on our lives and, and so forth. I think, to me, what, what speaks to me most directly, and what I think has rung true with, with the Junior League leadership experience specifically, is that, I mean, we have just this really impressive group of women who are our members, and that they’ve convened in this group because they are like minded in some sort of way. 

And really, at the end of the day, it’s because they want to do something that matters with their time and their lives. And, and so I think Focusing on the why, right, right, giving them the opportunity to use whatever their skill set, whatever their interests are, using that in a very unique and specific way to affect the change or produce the impact that they desire is really where the magic happens. 

And so that’s that can be challenging in that I think it’s sometimes. requires a more sort of bespoke pathway for each person or everyone, but I don’t, I just don’t, I don’t see a way that we’re busy. It’s not that we don’t want to give, make the effort or give the time, it’s that we must make sure we’re seeing our unique sort of skill set or me as a specific individual with my background. 

Why it matters that I’m doing it, right? Nobody can just do it themselves, right? Sometimes that’s the answer, right? Like we need, we have to feed 100 kids at this school or at this after school program, and we just physically need warm bodies to do it. And sometimes that can be compelling, right? 

They’re not going to get fed if there aren’t 100 of us here or whatever. That can matter very, very. specifically in that context and can be compelling to some folks. But I think by and large, it’s really, really focusing on the why. Why do I need to do this thing at this moment in time? Or what is it that I am uniquely positioned to accomplish or lend to this effort? 

Tobi: Yeah, I mean, I think this, way of creating flexibility and giving people a way to create meaning, make meaning with their volunteering, right? It has implications for not only the sort of more traditional charities we think of them, but also associations, professional associations, membership associations that are struggling now. 

To keep members or to engage members in contributing to that organization. And I think many have, they’re going through governance modernization and they’re saying like, look, our old governance models aren’t working. It. Given your history and your bio, there is structure at the Junior League. How do you balance that with, with having people kind of create bespoke projects? 

Is it more about working in teams? Is it which teams are working with which? sort of more traditional roles in terms of governance. How does it fit together? Because I see organizations really struggling with this. How do we change our governance structure to better, also better fit what people are wanting? 

Alice: Yeah. Well, I can tell you, you mentioned in the lengthy introduction that he provided, which thank you for that. The governance, the structural overhaul that we undertook at the Junior League of New Orleans during, during my tenure there, and, and really one of the, so that was evolving a model, it’s sort of an outdated model to speak a little bit more clearly to today’s members. 

And I can tell you what that looked like, maybe just let me give you the kind of a case study, I guess. Sure. And that was, there was a, So you join, at the time you were called a provisional member, it’s like your first year of membership, and then you become an active member for a certain number of years where you have an expectation of time, service, hours, and some other obligations that, that once you’ve fulfilled those obligations then you move on to sustainer hood, which is like the promised land where you could just get to go to parties and choose. 

Choose your own adventure, basically with the junior league and the way you engage with them. But those active years were where we would see the most attrition and the most membership fall off. What I observed in talking particularly with leaders, or past leaders, sustainers who had been very engaged with the junior league is that they would almost invariably tell you in hindsight. 

I learned A to Z skills through my tenure at the Junior League and doing all these different projects and leading and chairing this committee and doing this event. And I learned so much and it made me a better board member, a better whatever, fill in the blank. But when you talk to those active members, they do not see that. 

They saw, I am just so busy. This project is overwhelming. These people are hard to deal with or organize or whatever. And so, what we did was said, okay, what we must do here is there’s the work to be done, the commitments that we’ve made to community partners for what we’re going to provide in any given year. 

But what we really need to do is demonstrate the return on the investment, if you will, to the members in real time and let them navigate this with some of armed with some of that information, right? If I choose to be on the membership engagement committee, let’s say that’s going to be planning a lot of ways for the members to convene and some meetings and maybe even some happy hours and other sort of stuff social activities.  

I’m kind of making this up now, it’s been a couple years, forgive me. I’m going to learn organizational skills. I’m going to learn some comms. I’m going to learn, et cetera, et cetera. And so, they could proactively, when they’re trying to decide where they want to plug in as an active member for their volunteer service at that time, they can say either. 

This is what I’m good at and want to continue doing, or this is where I want to build some skills, or this is what I’m really interested in on a more of a community facing volunteer side, right? They really wanted to be out in the community serving, um, more directly engaging with partners and beneficiaries, recipients of those services, they could choose that, but it, but it, it created an environment, or at least the goal was that it would create an environment where you had a, both a more informed membership process, an engagement process, and then ultimately, hopefully, then really let your member understand more clearly what the benefit of membership is and how they can engage most effectively given their sort of life, career, volunteer goals at that time.  

Tobi: Mm hmm. I always think of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and like self-actualizations at the top of the pyramid, basic survivals at the bottom, but, and it really is, volunteering is about self-actualization. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s about becoming the best version of ourselves. That’s why we volunteer, I think. And so, this, this alignment of what are you going to learn? You know, I think about the traditional volunteer position description. It’s like every organization has them for them, and it’s all, this is what we need you to do. 

And then a very long, long list capacities, capabilities, requirements, et cetera. But you know, I’ve always said there’s a few things to bring this up. One is put some quotes about from volunteers who’ve been in this role on that position description. So, there’s the voice of a volunteer there. Put an impact statement at the top that says, this is what last year, what people in this role achieved and now I’m thinking you should include a section that says you will learn in this role. You can expect to learn XYZ. Yeah, and then people can figure out what matches best it’s in your case You really went after figuring out how to match people better with experiences that make sense to them. 

And of course you’re going to stick around, you know? 

Alice: Well, that’s the hope, right? And you know, what’s interesting about the League, because most of our members, um, skew younger, you know, young professionals, not, um, coincidentally, at one of the busiest points in their lives. You know, if they’re parents, they’re often parents of young children. 

There’s a lot going on in your 20s, 30s, 40s, right? Um, and so, earlier in the, in the lifespan of the junior league, the folks were coming, perhaps with less training, they were coming to us at a different place in, in life or career than they are today. And so sometimes it’s skills development and leadership development. 

Other times it’s, I’m an attorney, and if I can serve you in a very specific way where I can use my professional expertise to help you in a way that maybe isn’t that heavy a lift for me, but would make a great impact for you in this particular way. I think it can be both, right? It doesn’t, I mean, you don’t always want to have to center yourself on making the decision. And that wasn’t necessarily the intent entirely but just giving a member more tools to choose their, their path through volunteerism, I think, and through impact and community service is really where we were trying to go.  

Tobi: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s great. You also talked about working with DEI and belonging. There’s such a keen interest in this right now in the sector. What changes do you think nonprofits should consider ensuring their membership structures are more inclusive and welcoming? You know, I was just having a conversation with somebody the other day about how they want to get their volunteers more involved in fundraising. 

But they also want the volunteers who are doing fundraising to have made contributions. And then you look at the donor pool and it’s like, that’s not very diverse. So, there’s like, there’s challenges for folks when they’re real practical challenges. Also sometimes I think organizations will go in some cases to the leader volunteers and say, okay, diversify when the organization itself hasn’t really made a huge commitment.  

And I always tell folks, wait a minute, that’s not your responsibility. I mean, you’re not, the leadership has to lead there on that, you know. So, what are you, what have you all learned in, in bridging and bringing on diverse folks, but also bridging maybe, maybe different types of diversity, intergenerational diversity, people with disabilities, et cetera. 

What have you found in your work in, in committees and, and implementing things?  

Alice: Gosh, I mean, there’s so much there. I feel like we could talk for the next 45 minutes just about this but let me think. I would say first, I’m very proud of the fact that the Junior League has been working very intentionally in this space for quite some time, but before it was cool, right? 

Not that it ever wasn’t, but before it was really part of sort of the larger conversation in the sector and just across the world. And so, we had a lot of work to do as an organization. Not only to diversify our membership, but just think about what that meant in the context of a women’s organization that primarily served members of a certain age, right? 

A very specific age range. So, there we had a lot of really low hanging fruit. I mean, we could just go in and cut numbers out like you don’t have to Oops. Quit when you’re 45, or those were easy things to do, but we did them. We did that work, and then we’ve continued to evolve, you know, with the conversation and the academics and the research and the conversation about, it’s not just about diversity, it’s about equity and inclusion. 

And really where we’re focused now is in that belonging space, because our membership has certainly become more diverse in, in really every, every sense of the, of the word, but Making sure that there’s a place for those members to feel not just that they’re, that they’re included, but that they’re making a meaningful impact and getting what they desire out of that membership. 

And I don’t, I think it’s important that that’s not just about feeling comfortable in the room. That’s about if, if our members are coming to grow themselves. Um, it expands themselves in whatever way they’re, they’re desirous of doing so. That can still be uncomfortable in very specific and unique ways, I think, for a volunteer organization and a membership organization. 

So, allowing for growth for, for each member, I think is, is, is where, where we’re focused and where we’re trying to work. For me, a membership organization, especially a women’s. Organization like it’s a no brainer. We’re not. I mean, there’s a finite number of potential members in the world, and if we’re not trying to attract them, then we’re limiting our growth potential, if you will. 

So, it’s not. It’s the business or the value proposition for us is easy. I think where it starts getting more challenging is in it. This very volatile environment, I think, not, and I don’t even just mean that politically. I mean, thinking about place based, thinking about fiscal presence versus virtual presence, thinking about accessibility and all the various ways that that has implications, I think is really where it gets challenging. 

And I think for nonprofits, especially membership-based ones. Well, that’s a whole new paradigm for us. I mean, and that that’s sticky. And that’s where we’re exploring. Where does it make the most sense? I mean, cities grow and shrink, and so you had a, maybe there was a chapter that was really big at one time, the city was really big, and now the city is smaller, losing population to a neighboring city, what do you, is it a new chapter in the neighboring city? 

Or is there some other way to do this that makes more sense? I mean, there’s, there’s just so much to unpack there, but I think it’s a really exciting time to be working in that space too, in, in any context, but especially in the membership based organizational context, because it just really feels like so much is happening and changing and that creates opportunity and risk, certainly, but really, really interesting. 

And then on the fun, you know, you mentioned kind of fun developments and on that piece, there’s not, I think, an easy answer there. I mean, I’ve seen So many different organizations grapple with it and try different things. This idea that like a, a give or get and versus an individual contribution and trying to diversify portfolios so that your contributions aren’t all coming from individuals. 

For us being a membership-based organization, I mean, dues are where a lot of our revenue comes from. And that, even that feels. Well, it makes sense if there’s risk associated with it, right? You want to be able to sustain yourself, even if for whatever reason, a bunch of your members can’t pay dues one year, which is as we saw during COVID, right? 

Or they were afraid to, or whatever that, whatever that meant. So, there’s, there’s, there’s a lot happening and I can’t, I don’t want to belabor it too much. I know we’ve got lots more to talk about, but, but interesting and exciting work, I think.  

Tobi: So, what do you think crystal ball wise? In the next decade, how do you see membership organizations evolving? We won’t hold you to whether it’s accurate, but crystal, just for fun, where do you see nonprofit membership models evolving too? Because it’s, I’m just interested.  

Alice: Yeah, gosh, I wish I could predict I would be really much more effective probably than I am now in these roles or with clients too, but I’ve my sense is that particularly with generations younger than me, it’s a very values based, values forward way of thinking and living. 

I mean, even in career paths and trajectories, that feels like it just matters more, and rightly so, I mean, you know, to folks who are sort of coming into their young professional lives. And so I suspect that that’s where we’re heading is less of a, this is the work to be done, or this is the mission, and more of a, we’re aligning around values, or we’re aligning around projects or issues that, that have more of a, sort of, that aggregate in that way, I guess, if you will. 

And I think we’re getting away from this idea, I mean, we talked about this, it’s already a dinosaur of like. Doing the thing for this amount of time at this place and then you go home, and you feel good about having done it. I just think that’s, that’s, that’s done. We’re done with that.  

Tobi: Yeah, I mean, I’m a huge proponent of volunteers working in teams because there’s so much flexibility in that way. You can bring in different. There’s expertise, there’s flexibility if people can’t come or can’t, can’t work on a project, can’t fulfill this piece for whatever life circumstance. And I like the idea of nonprofits giving volunteer teams a little more say in the projects that they work on. More like your model. 

Like, hey, let’s, let’s, okay, if this is our value, let’s look for a project in our community or let’s look for a project within this organization that we want to partner with or that we’re volunteering inside, that could make a difference versus, like I said, the day labor kind of model where it’s like, we’re going to pull up the pickup truck, you’re going to jump in and we’re going to tell you what to do all day. 

Like, I just think people just, that is not, although sometimes there’s a place for that. I remember being a busy nonprofit director and being really, I wanted to volunteer, but I was also really exhausted and stressed. So, if I were going to have to use my leadership chops in my volunteer gig, it wasn’t going to happen. 

So, I chose. I started working in a resource library in a local art museum just so I could sit quietly, help people find books and resources. Oh, I love it. So, I didn’t have to use it like, because my, my leadership brain by the time it was Friday was, so Saturdays I would do this. So, by Friday night, my leadership side of my brain was like completely fried, but I still wanted to give. 

So, I think it’s not always that people want to do something that where they’re creating. Sometimes people just want to. offer a pair of hands. I think what’s important is understanding that and having a variety of offers on the table.  

Alice: Well, and the other thing that I find interesting, and I don’t have the crystal ball on this, but it’s something that I ask myself a lot is this sort of play space versus virtual, right? 

It feels this sort of natural inclination that I’ve observed is to move more towards. virtual conceptually, right? It’s more convenient and people can gather in different ways. And I think there’s a role figuring out the mix, right? The right blend of that. Those two pieces feels really important to me, too, because I think a lot of what we’re The issues that bubble up for you and the things that you care about, I think, in many cases now are coming to you digitally, right, like you’re getting your information from social media or you’re getting it from other places and you’re like, this is unacceptable and people are gathering in this sort of new, unique way over an issue or a problem or a meme or whatever. 

But then the solution and the organizing might start virtual, but at some point, it must, I think it must happen IRL. And so, I just think that’s going to be an interesting piece. And I hope that we don’t move entirely away from, not place based so much, but just like the, the connection of, of convening in person or gathering in person or organizing with real people. 

I suspect the pendulum will swing back in some way toward that as we feel. less and less connected, but I do think that it’s a real value add that volunteerism and organizations like what we’re speaking of can provide to people who need this sort of help solve this loneliness epidemic.  

Tobi: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the hybrid, so many workplaces are experimenting and have gone hybrid part time in the workplace and part time virtual. And I think it’s interesting as technologies come on board with volunteerism. It’s always been that volunteers are virtual in some way, even if it’s just getting information, looking at emails, logging into a database, whatever it is. Now it’s meeting via Zoom, etc. But I agree there’s something about, first, virtual. 

I was talking with somebody about this recently. Going virtual is more stressful on the body and the mind. There is a tax to conducting business virtually. There’s also, in, in terms of volunteerism, a lot of people volunteer to be social. And so, getting together is part of, part and parcel of what they want out of their volunteering. 

So, it’s an interesting thing to continue to grapple with, I think, for organizations. Plus, like making sure that the technology is easy. I agree with you. It hasn’t shaken out yet. We don’t know what it’s going to be, but I think organizations will continue to, to figure that out. 

Let’s take a quick break and afterwards we’ll talk about advocacy because I’m still on that. And you’ve got so much experience in that area. So, let’s take a pause from my conversation with Alice Glenn about reimagining nonprofit membership and volunteer engagement. After the break, we’re going to talk about advocacy and she’s going to share her best advice. We’ll be right back.  

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Tobi: Okay, we’re back with our conversation about reimagining nonprofit membership and volunteer engagement with Alice Glenn. As I promised, we’re going to talk about. advocacy and the intersection between nonprofit government and business. And it’s such an uncertain environment, not only here in the U.S. I know around the world people are feeling it. Um, funding, sustainability concerns, just the way that we need to evolve as a sector, technology, you name it. 

Many organizations are unsure about how to proceed. When you’re Working in cross sector partnerships, nonprofit government business, do you believe, first, are they still a workable option to get, to move the needle on issues and impact? And what are your top takeaways, I mean, again, we could go for like hours on this one, for volunteer fueled organizations when it comes to advocacy? 

Alice: Okay, let’s see. I’ll take the first question first, which is, yeah, are coalitions still viable? And I would say, yes, they are still probably one of the few avenues for viable success in the policy space. And I think this is how I think of it. And having, having had the somewhat unique experience of wearing multiple hats simultaneously, both on the inside and outside of government, if you will. 

I know who I am and sort of what, I got my resume in my head and I know where my expertise is and also really, I think, specifically where I can be effective, where the, my levers, like I have some levers that I can press, like just me, uniquely, effectively. And there are other folks who have their own levers that they can effectively press. 

And some of, some folks in, in, if you’re thinking about it in a coalition, depending on where they sort of fall on the ideological spectrum or whatever, maybe their role is just to like be the really loud outlier voice that helps shift your, your attention a little bit. And then I can come in to like pragmatic sort of specific harm reduction strategy. 

strategist, if you will, and, and just move the needle a little bit incrementally in the direction that we want to head. And so, I think really understanding who my partners are, what role they can play in a broader coalition, and then what kind of sequencing and putting that strategy together in a way that, that is effective is where, where I think it’s at. 

Yeah. So that’s, yeah, we can, yeah, if you want to talk more about that before we move on, I’m happy too.  

Tobi: Yeah. I mean, I think. having myself worked in different campaigns for, for example, when the Affordable Care Act was passed, I was the Tennessee State Director for a while for Enroll America. I took a pit stop from my consulting because I’m a huge health care advocate. 

I was like, Yeah, I’ll take the job. Okay, I’ll do it for a little while. But I was working with the mayors of Tennessee. All of this in the cities of Tennessee, trying to get everybody, we actually got everybody to commit to an op ed and the op ed was in favor of folks, hey, let’s get some affordable health care and go ahead and enroll yourself in the exchanges if you’re, if you don’t have health care, right? 

Like there is an option for you now. We organized all four mayors and they all printed op eds in the four main newspapers. So, it was Memphis, Chattanooga, Knoxville, and Nashville, and it was a huge PR coup. But it wouldn’t matter if I wrote all those op eds, it would have, like, talk about leavers, like nobody knows who I am, like a little organizer out in like East Tennessee. 

Nobody cares, but you know, I have no voice for that, right, for that space anyway. So, talk about leavers. And then just working, I remember when I was working in a program where we were, our volunteers did Medicare and health insurance counseling. And we worked very closely with the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services regional office staff. 

We basically helped what the policies that they created, we helped communicate them to the public in people’s terms, basically. That’s basically what we did. We helped people find health care plans that made sense around specifically Medicare because it’s so complicated. And then business, there’s so many ways for small business to get involved, small and large. 

I mean, there’s, there’s, there’s lots of. sort of corporate social responsibility, employee volunteering, etc. And I think a lot of times nonprofits don’t look at local neighborhood-based businesses, local business associations, and the power they have, and the levers they have, and the connections they have in Just in the local, in the, out of their brick and mortar, in the local Main Street environment. 

Yeah. And I always think of small business CSR, like we don’t talk about small business CSR, right? That’s true. So it’s interesting. I mean, sometimes we’ll talk about pro bono work and kind of lump that into small, small, a lot of attorneys, HR professionals, et cetera, consultants. 

Alice: But at the end of the day, understanding who you’re talking to, who your audience is, and what they’re, what’s going to, move them or compel them to act, I think, is important. 

And in many cases, yeah, a volunteer leader or just a volunteer period is maybe not going to be it unless they’re maybe a constituent or a constituent of influence of some influence, right? But a business owner, a small business owner, maybe the compelling messenger or their case study may be more compelling than the fill in the blank, even a mayor or another government official. 

Tobi: Yeah, I remember when I was early in my career in nonprofits, it would make me break out in a cold sweat. If I had to pick up the phone and start networking and trying to figure out how to create these collaborations. Now, years into it, I got a little bit better at it and was leading a lot of coalitions, especially I remember when the Part D, Medicare Part D prescription drug plan started. 

I led a whole coalition of cross sector organizations, government folks and whatever, just to make sure the folks in our state. Especially the Medicare beneficiaries could get their prescription drugs covered but any other advice for those younger people young professionals who are like, oh, no I can’t do that. 

Yeah, who am I like I’m a young professional who am I did to try to start to network or create connections or understand where there might be benefits, mutual benefits for partnership. How do you, what do you recommend and how do they get started?  

Alice: Well, I’ll say this first, just as a broad statement, not necessarily just in the advocacy or public policy perspective, but as a young professional, I was involved with a group. It was a women’s opera guild. That I got roped into helping and they were, for the most part, octogenarians and older women who were very engaged in this project, they had an invite list for their ball, their big fundraiser that they asked me to help with the invitations. And I said, sure, give me the give me the list of invitees. 

And they handed me a list of like physical hard copy list of names and addresses. And I said, okay, but who has the original list? And they were like, we just gave it to you. Um, so I Put it all in an Excel spreadsheet. And now they have a master list. And to this day, I see these women, and they introduced me as Alice Glenn, the computer genius. 

You know what, at first, I argued with them, and now I don’t. I just say, thank you so much. I love you too. You know, we’re going on like 20 years of this relationship now. And I did a thing that one, you cannot do for yourself, and two, helped you in a real way. Yeah. Yeah. I would say just generally, like, never underestimate your value to any given task at hand. 

Because it can make an impact even if it’s not really something that you feel is challenging or, or vice versa, the reverse is also true. And the other thing I will say is that I’ve been in, also they were some of my greatest referral sources for clients and other things. I mean, like, how can you not, like, I’m certainly going to call the computer genius. 

And then I’m like, well, this is what I did. But let me tell you what my thoughts on your project. So that was it. It was funny, but I think it’s true, right? Funny because it’s true, but it’s real. It was an illuminating thing to reflect on throughout my career. I’ve also been fortunate to have been in a lot of rooms that I’m using my air quotes that you can’t see, but very important people, right? 

Governors and congressional leadership and all these different people. And I may or not have been invited into those rooms with the expectation that I would speak up. But in many cases I did, if I had something to say. And I think that that’s a scary thing to do at any time in your career, depending on who the audience is. 

But I, I’ve just done it. I’ve just erred on the side of like saying what’s on my mind if given the opportunity. And, uh, it’s gone better at times than others. But I do think that, you know, kind of getting over the hump of just If I’m in the room, I’m at the table. Right? That’s my advice. If I’m in the room, I’m at the table. 

And so, I think in the context of advocacy and how to get started, if you’re afraid, number one, you are allowed to do it. It is your civic duty to do so. And this is really the, the The reframe that I have focused on with the Junior League in particular, because we’re one of those organizations that really backed off of public policy and engagement over the course of the last couple of decades, we were one that was very involved in various ways and then less And so what’s happened is that we’ve lost a lot of that institutional knowledge and certainly comfort and engaging in that way as members. 

So, one, you’re allowed to do it. Not only are you allowed to do it, but it is your obligation to do so. And I would say that’s a step forward. That’s especially true for volunteer-based organizations, because if you’re not trying to solve, identify and solve the root cause of the issue, then you are delivering services that enable the problem to persist, so you are in fact part of the problem, right? 

If you’re volunteering at a food bank and the food bank is feeding the hungry people in your community but you’re not trying to solve for why there’s so many hungry people in your community in the first place that need free food, you are enabling the problem to perpetuate and so that’s where public policy comes in and look, I mean, that’s a The song for that is big and gnarly and it’ll come one day, I hope, but we’ve got to keep leaning in and this is when you’re really playing the long game of saying, Hey, we keep coming back to you for funding and we keep coming back to you for all of the needs that we have because the need is growing. 

We have got to stop the need from growing. Like, how about anyway, there are other solutions, I guess. And so, the and the solution in many cases is through public policy or some other unique solution that engages multiple sectors or pillars of the community. So, I like tactical advice. Number one, anybody can go, can send an email or go to a committee hearing or as you are invited. 

It is not always made easy for you to do so. And that’s by design, I think in some cases, right? Whether it’s like intentional or just sort of as structurally societal evolution, right? The meetings are happening at a place, and you must go to the place during business hours, and you must get there and back. 

And there’s a lot of challenges. And I think that folks in the volunteer space are, this is what we’re doing, we’re solving challenges. So that’s one, but, but, but you’re, you’re invited to participate, and you have an obligation to do so. I would say two, these folks, the way I think about it anyway, is that they, like they’re elected to serve us if they’re policy makers. 

And so, I don’t want to take no for an answer if the answer is like, no, I don’t want to talk to you. I don’t, that’s not right. That’s not how the system is designed. And so, I don’t, I can’t allow that. That didn’t mean they were going to listen, but they were going to hear it. I mean, you see where I clearly where I go with all of this is like speak up at the table when you’re invited, but whether you’re invited or not, maybe. 

But I think the other thing that’s such like really clear to me is that sometimes I can be effective in using my own voice, sometimes the power that I have is soft power, and that is because of, as you said earlier, I have relationships in my community with the person whose voice might be more impactful or more valued by the decision maker. 

And that’s when it’s not hard to just make a call, hey, could you write this letter to the editor? Or hey, can you call your friend so and so and ask him to What, uh, fill in the blank. And, and that’s especially for junior league members. I think that’s where we don’t think about that as advocacy. We think about it as going and filling out the card and go doing the thing, the very sort of formal official thing. 

But we can often have more impact out sort of on the outside of government, if you will, or by figuring out what our lever is and, and exercising that.  

Tobi: Yeah, I mean, I think it is strategic. I also think that it helps to Think about It helps to be clear on what your goal is, right? What, what is your advocacy goal? 

But also, if you have expertise, your organization has expertise in the community, has expertise around your mission. Absolutely. That you’re doing a service to that decision maker who does not understand the environment. They have a very, yes, they have staffers who can do research and whatever, whatever. 

But you know what’s happening on the ground level with constituents, right? Because most of them are voters. And so, it’s interesting to think of yourself as that person with that who can, it can bring about knowledge, can bring, bring experience. You don’t have to be the one that knows it all. You just need to be the one that connects them with the one that knows it all. Right. Or the information.  

Alice: But you’re absolutely right that we, in many cases, if you’re the volunteer who’s been working directly with the partner or the service provider or what have you, you’re a subject matter expert in whatever that issue is because you know it intimately from the experience that you’ve had. 

And you’re quite right that, I mean, it’s a, it’s an overwhelming job, I think, particularly at the state legislative level. They don’t have a lot of staff. That’s how they support them and make sure that they’re well informed. And so, and they’re getting a lot of requests and information and problems thrown at them. So, figuring out how to cut through the noise effectively is, yeah, it’s really valuable.  

Tobi: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Alice, this was a fantastic conversation. I hope that our listeners are really First of all, inspired to take on some advocacy work, or at least education about the impact of their nonprofit. 

Start there, just educating, like, look, if you don’t know about us, this is what we do, and this is the problem that we solve, or try to solve. I also think it’s, I hope it’s given some of our, our listeners who are parts of membership associations, thoughts about how to modernize and how to, evolve their governance models, etc. 

I love the idea that you spoke about this combination of leadership development and really helping volunteers become their best versions of themselves. I think that’s so compelling. We’re in a world where people are just, we’re all, self-development is just a thing. Yeah. And why not develop around Service and giving and civic engagement rather than developing around, I don’t know, like something a little less important. 

I don’t know. That’s just me. So, it’s this has been inspirational. So, I really appreciate it. Let me ask you one last question as we wrap up. What are you most excited about in the year ahead? It could be personal. It could be professional. Whatever.  

Alice: Oh gosh, what am I most excited about the year ahead? You know, I think we’re, we’ve got a lot of interesting, fun projects and, and not surprisingly, I talked about evolving a governance model with the local junior league. We’re, we’re taking a hard look at that with AJLI and it’s bighairy thing, right? But I, I’m, I’m jazzed about it. 

Maybe this is the unique audience who gets as excited about digging into governance models and membership models as I do. But, um, stay tuned. I hope. I think it’s probably a multiyear project. It may be one of those. see how we can negotiate, I guess, and collectively bargain, essentially, amongst all our members, member organizations, member chapters, we don’t call them chapters, they’re independent leagues. 

But how can we figure out what the sort of future model looks like for us. So that’ll be a lot of fun.  

Tobi: Well, and go you. I mean, some organizations kind of sit on their laurels and don’t evolve and others take on that big challenge. So good for you.  

Alice: No, thank you! 

Tobi: Well, it’s always having, having rewritten bylaws myself. 

Alice: I’ll take any advice, I’ll take all your tips, please.  

Tobi: So, Alice, how can people learn more about you, you, and your work, and get in touch with you if they’re interested in learning more? I know you, I’ve gotten some links, I’ll put in the show notes, but just tell people how, how you’d love people to connect. 

Alice: Sure. Well, I think you’ve got my social handles, which you’re welcome to share, and I’d love to hear from anyone who wants to talk more about any of this or be. That’s enough TMI. Um, but we’d also love for you to visit the junior league and the AJLI website, international. org or AJLI. org. And there’s certainly more information about me if that’s of interest, but about the organization and the other amazing women and work that they’re doing all over the world. I really invite you to visit and learn more about our great organization and the movement.  

Tobi: Awesome. Well, thank you so much and have a wonderful rest of your week.

Alice: Same for you.