122 – Rethinking Community Involvement with Ruth Leonard

August 8, 2024

Episode #122: Rethinking Community Involvement with Ruth Leonard 

In this episode of the Volunteer Nation podcast, Tobi invites Ruth Leonard back onto the show and delve into rethinking community involvement, specifically talking about the key themes from Ruth’s book, Volunteer Involvement: An Introduction to Theory and Practice.  

The pair explore critical reflections on volunteerism, the importance of redefining volunteer engagement, and practical insights for fostering and managing volunteer relationships. The conversation covers the evolving role of volunteers, barriers to engagement, and the impact of volunteer actions on communities.  

Community Involvement – Episode Highlights

• [00:47] – Impact of Volunteer Recruitment Training 
• [01:52] – Discussing Ruth Leonard’s New Book 
• [06:37] – Ruth Leonard’s Background and Career Path 
• [11:26] – Importance of Volunteerism Today 
• [25:19] – Defining Volunteerism 
• [29:25] – Debating the Value of Volunteering 
• [29:58] – The True Motivation of Volunteers 
• [30:40] – Rethinking Volunteer Involvement 
• [32:17] – Formal vs. Informal Volunteering 
• [34:46] – The Importance of Honest Conversations in Volunteerism 
• [38:46] – Exploring the Negative Aspects of Volunteering 
• [41:59] – Power Dynamics and Barriers in Volunteerism 
• [46:29] – The Role of Relationships in Volunteer Management 
• [55:35] – Future Trends in Community Involvement 

Helpful Links

• VolunteerPro Membership Community 
• Volunteer Management Progress Report 
• Volunteer Nation Episode #117: Beyond the Big Help Out with Ruth Leonard & Rob Jackson 
• Volunteer Nation Episode #119: Volunteer Manager Salary & Career Paths with Megan Vixie 
• Association of Volunteer ManagersVoluntary Sector Studies Network (VSSN)  
• NCVO, Time Well Spent: A National Survey on the Volunteer Experience 
• Volunteer Involvement: An Introduction to Theory and Practice book 
• Get the book on Amazon UK 
• Get the book on Amazon US 
• Find Ruth on LinkedIn 
• Find Ruth on X 

Contact Us

Have questions or suggestions for the show? Email us at wecare@volpro.net.

Rate, Review, & Follow Us on Apple Podcasts

If you love the content Tobi shares on the Volunteer Nation podcast, consider rating and reviewing the show! This helps us reach more people – and help more good causes just like yours – successfully engage enthusiastic, dedicated volunteers with less stress and more joy.

Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars. Then, select “Write a Review” and let us know what you loved most about this episode!

Also, if you haven’t done so already, follow the podcast so you don’t miss a thing. Follow now!

Subscribe to ProNews: Our Weekly Resource Roundup

If you’d like to stay up to date on all new podcasts, blogs, freebies, and deals posted on our Tobi Johnson & Associates and VolunteerPro websites, subscribe to our weekly ProNews newsletter.

Every Wednesday, we’ll send you a digest of our freshest content, plus a bonus! Once you confirm your subscription, you’ll get our [Free eBook] The New Volunteer Manager: The First 90 Days.

Episode #122 Transcript: Rethinking Community Involvement with Ruth Leonard

Tobi: Welcome everybody to another episode of the Volunteer Nation podcast. I have a repeat guest today. Ruth Leonard is with me. You may remember when Rob Jackson and Ruth joined me. Oh, I think it was a month ago or so in episode 117, beyond the big help out with Ruth Leonard and Rob Jackson I’ll link to that in the show notes. But remember, we were wrapping up our conversations and insights from the day long volunteer recruitment training I did in Manchester, and It was a wonderful experience. I just interviewed another person who’d been at that training yesterday, and that podcast will air shortly. She told me, Ruth, and I don’t think, I didn’t mention this before we started, but she told me she had used my framework for messaging, and they were having the hardest time attracting volunteers. 

It changed immediately with the new messaging, and they were able to bring on a bunch of new volunteers, attract a bunch of applicants and I, you know, I never hear that. I never know what really happens except with our volunteer pro members who I, you know, get to know and we work together over time. 

But you know, when I go to a training, I never know if number one, if people are going to implement and number two, if it gives them impact. And so that’s always like a joy to hear.  

Ruth: That’s amazing. Well done.  

Tobi: Yeah. So. Good stuff. But anyway, so gang, if you want to learn more about that, check out episode 117 and it, we all posted in the show notes, but the reason I wanted Ruth to come back is because she with her, uh, writing partner or co author has written a book called Volunteer Involvement, An Introduction: to theory and practice. And I had not gotten my hands on the book, and I said, wait a minute, we got to talk about this book. And so, I ordered the book. It took a little while for it to get to me, but I’ve been reading it. I’m on like the last chapter, and it is blowing my mind in its clarity. in describing what’s happening in today’s volunteer engagement. 

And the thing I like about this book, it’s not really a how to book per se. It’s not an instructional guide or manual. It’s more a description and a reflection. So, it really describes, I think, in succinct terms, because the book is short and with lots of, uh, references as well, if you want to dig in deeper to academic research. 

So, it’s well researched, well cited, but not academic at all, but clearly describes kind of the, the gamut of, of how volunteerism happens across a variety of impact areas, but more in the ways it happens. And it expands, not constricts, the definitions in some ways, and in some ways it does, in some ways it limits the ways we think about volunteerism, and we will talk about that in a minute. 

There’s a fantastic chapter, which again, we’ll talk about in a minute, where there’s a critical look at some of the things, you know, we tend to, because we’re, we feel like we are sort of not under attacked, but undervalued sometimes, and often misunderstood in the field of volunteer engagement, that we rarely want to have a critical view, or we rarely want to communicate a critical view of what we do, but You all, Ruth, in your book, bravely call that out and of course we all know that, you know, volunteerism is not perfect and nor is it always good and again, we’ll talk about that in a minute. 

But, you know, I think it gives a very well-rounded sort of picture of where we’re at right now. As an enterprise, and I think the book is great for people who have just started out to get a good quick grounding of like, to get up to speed quick on sort of the theory and what’s happening. 

And for those of us who’ve been around for a while, it will confirm, but also. call into question or at least open up some areas that you may not have thought about. Because there’s some self-reflective questions. And I think this book, I don’t know if you guys designed it, Ruth, for a book club, but it would be an awesome book club read. Did you design it for that?  

Ruth: We didn’t design it for that, but I have, via Association of Volunteer Managers, had a book club conversation. And anybody else who wants to, um, ask us to come and talk about it? I’d love to. I can’t think of anything more exciting than talking about the book. I think I’m really pleased that you found it. 

Tobi: I could see this being like a five week or six weeks since you have six chapters doing a chapter a week and then talking through the self-reflective questions. I want, I’m going to ask my volunteer pro members if they’d be down for that.  

Ruth: More than happy.  

Tobi: It’s a quick read. It’s not, it’s not, you know, laborious, but the questions are so deep in terms of you know, really considering, and they don’t have pat answers. It’s not a book that gives you, you know, here’s exactly the paint by number.  

Ruth: I think you’re right. It’s completely not a rule book or a textbook in that you must do this, and you get this outcome. It is supposed to be something that engages you and makes you think critically about what you’re doing as a volunteer manager. And there are some, there are some answers where you’ll see disagreement. You and I might disagree on some of those. And there’s not necessarily right or wrong. It’s part of that conversation.  

Tobi: Yeah. And I love that because we’re in a world right now where everybody wants to be so enmeshed, or it hunkered in the bunker on their point of view. And this discourse, open discourse, we’ve kind of lost that ability because I think people feel like they’re on, on the defense a lot. esp. esp. Well, and here in the US for sure. I don’t, you know, I don’t know. In the UK, I expect, with Brexit at all.  

Ruth: Polarized society as well.  

Tobi: Yeah. So, well, let me introduce Ruth before we go any further. Ruth Leonard is the chair of the association of volunteer managers. She’s also that’s, that’s sort of her side hustle. Her day job is a head of volunteering development and operations at Macmillan cancer support. She is co-author, obviously, of this book that I just talked about, Volunteer Involvement: An Introduction to Theory and Practice, which we will post links to in the show notes so you can grab this book. 

Gang, you want to grab this book, please do. For Ruth, volunteer management is about empowering and enabling people to bring creativity and ingenuity to a solution to make a difference in their community. Her current role is to consider strategically where volunteering can add value to developing solutions and to ensure a supportive infrastructure so people who want to give their time can have a quality experience, which is lovely, which is where we should focus our time. 

People, not paperwork necessarily. Having been involved in volunteer management for over two decades, she has significant significance. Thank you. experience at providing leadership on involving and engaging people and is committed to ensuring others can develop these skills.  

Ruth: What a lovely bio. Oh, you make me sound so good when you read it. 

Tobi: Well, you are good. Come on. Well, let’s, let’s jump into this. Okay. Tell us a little bit, you know, I’ve given your bio and where you work and all that and you’ve talked in your bio a little bit about sort of what’s your core mission in life. How did you get into the field of volunteerism in the first place? 

Ruth: Probably like most people, not in a straightforward line of I want to be involved in volunteering or volunteer management. I started out wanting to be involved in journalism. I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to be a journalist. I got a certification in it, couldn’t get a job, probably unsurprisingly, so started volunteering in the press team at a national charity and from there got really involved in the volunteering team and the next time a job came up it was in the volunteering team. So that was the opportunity to move into volunteering and volunteer management. Awesome.  

Tobi: That’s so common in how people get involved. You know, a lot of times we don’t even know what we’re getting into, or volunteerism is just part of a bigger job that we’re doing.  

Ruth: Yeah. I think one of the things that I’ve always found, I love people and hearing about people and understanding what makes them tick. 

And that’s what was interesting to me in them. the journalism element, but with volunteering and involving volunteers and working with a huge range of different people in that, in that space, I was getting a lot of that kind of, um, feeling and being able to tell stories and hear stories that I would have got through, um, journalism. So, it kind of built from that enthusiasm of being where people are.  

Tobi: Yeah, and curiosity, I think. Tell us a little bit about the Association of Volunteer Managers. I know about you, but I’m pretty sure the folks in the U. S. don’t, or maybe some of our other listeners around the world. Just give us a short bit and how you got involved with them as well.  

Ruth: Yeah, of course. Um, Association of Volunteer Managers is a professional membership organization for anybody who involves volunteers in their role. I like it. It doesn’t have to be just a paid job, it covers the voluntary sector, charities, not for profit, but also people who involve volunteers in the state services, in corporate, in a whole range of settings. 

And it’s a membership organization so that people can feel there are others that they can talk to and learn from. I know there are sister organizations in the states and in Canada, so it’s very similar to those kinds of things, like Alive.  

Tobi: Yeah, yeah.  

Ruth: And how I got involved, I’ve been involved, I went along to the first launch, um, the launch day when they were beginning to explore, um, and Rob Jackson, you mentioned him earlier, was part of, of thinking about how we are building that kind of a group that people can get together. 

So, I’ve been a member since then, and then I joined as a, the membership board about years ago and then from there successfully elected as the chair for part five years ago or something. So I’ve been, I’ve been doing that and it’s been amazing to be able to hear lots of different experiences from other people in the, in the professions, people who are a bit like you mentioned, some people are doing it as an extension to their day job, not their sole element. 

And then there were those who are like me who are doing it as a, as their full-time role.  

Tobi: Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve met so many lovely members at our event in Manchester, it’s awesome. So, when we think about, or when you think about volunteerism, why do you think it’s important particularly today, especially, you know, we’ve had so many challenges recently in our sector around the world. 

And I think nonprofits are struggling to do this effectively, some anyway, not all. And so, but we keep. Keep pushing forward. Uh, why do you think it’s important?  

Ruth: I think that people using their own skills, strengths, and assets to start Making that difference in their community is the only thing that’s probably going to make a change in the world. 

There’s a quote, Margaret Mead said, “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” It’s the one thing that makes me think this is, this is what it’s about. And so, so, involving volunteers as a profession is a way to be able to give that power and responsibility back to people who can really make that difference. And we mentioned earlier some of the polarization that there is in society now and some of that feeling against them and people having things done unto them by corporate entities or whatever that might look like. And this is a real opportunity to help people take that democratic act of being a citizen in their own society. That’s how I see it.  

Tobi: Yeah, absolutely. Let’s jump into the book. So, you recently published, well, a couple years ago, a volunteer involvement in introduction to theory and practice. This is, you know, we don’t get a lot of new books in our field. So, it is a new book in terms of the compendium of different books on ours that focus on volunteerism. 

It’s really about the many ways community involvement happens. And I’ve talked, you know, when I kicked us off, I talked a little bit about my impressions of the book, but tell me how, what sparked the idea, your, your introduction, you talk about kind of walking around with your coauthor and, and having this idea that maybe we should write this book, but what made you First of all, uh, decide to take the lead and publish this book, and secondly, what made you decide to collaborate with an academic, uh, Juergen Gratz is your co-author. I always like to call the academic and the practitioner the pracademic, you know?  

Ruth: Okay, I haven’t heard that.  

Tobi: So, it’s like a pracademic book. It’s a great combo, right? Tell us about that.  

Ruth: In fact, I might start with that, um, bit, the pracademic, which I haven’t heard before. I’m now going to use the element because I’m a bit of a nerd. I like research. I like understanding some of the theories behind things rather than just carrying out what I’m told to do. One of the first things I was doing as the chair of the association of volunteer managers was reaching out to the research sector. There’s a, an entity called Voluntary Studies Sector Network within Britain, and I really wanted to bridge what is a divide, so it felt like a divide at the time between researchers and practitioners to think about how we could both learn from each other. 

So, I’d already started along that route and that’s how I met Jürgen and one of those conversations, so yes, that walk around the lake in his university. We talked about all the great unsolved questions and answers, the kind of conversations that tie us all up in knots, so what is volunteering, um, how do we understand better from other organizations. 

And that was the start of that conversation, which we enjoyed so much, we really wanted to take that. outside to other people to join in that conversation. And at the same time, both he and his academic world work and I and my role at AVM were getting asked questions that we felt had actually been answered in the past, but nobody was really Understanding where to get those answers from and, and how to seek that so we could definitely see a gap. 

There’s great stuff out there, but it wasn’t necessarily being used by the people, um, who needed to hear it. So, we wanted to pull all of that, all of that together to reach both of those audiences.  

Tobi: Yeah, and I think with, with having read plenty of Uh, academic papers, they’re not always easily accessible or understandable for people who are working on the ground level. 

You know, there’s a fair amount of, you know, statistics and the way the papers are written. They’re dense. You know, I often will skip Uh, all the way down to the conclusions. I’ll read the abstract at the front, I’ll look, I’ll quickly glance at the statistics to see what’s up, although I’m not a statistician and I don’t do regression analysis and all the like, all the Crohn’s alpha and all this like stuff, I’m like, I don’t get it. 

And then I’ll go to like conclusions and implications, you know, so I think it’s hard, hard for folks who aren’t trained to understand this kind of writing. But also, I think it’s important, and as you said, like, this research is ongoing. There are thousands of people around the world that are studying and researching volunteerism, and it never trickles down to the people who need to use that research to make change. 

So, I completely agree. I mentioned earlier, this functions more as a conversation than an instruction manual. I really felt engaged in the book. I felt like I was having a conversation with it. You know, there’s a lot of themes you could choose from to cover in a book like this, and you really precipitated your themes down to really six main chapters. 

How did you do that, and you know, what do you want, from your perspective, what do you want the book to really do in the world?  

Ruth: So, I’m really pleased that you experienced it as a conversation and that you wanted to be engaged in that because that’s exactly what we wanted. We wanted to feel as though we were all walking around the lake together and having conversations about some of the great things in volunteering and volunteer management and it’s coming across that way. 

We really wanted to ground the work in some of those broader elements of where volunteering might have been conceived historically or across the, across the globe in all its different stages and have something that was accessible, as you say, to, to volunteer managers who actually may never have known that kind of, of, um, information. 

So, we wanted to start with some of the, um, where, what are we talking about here? Practicality, then have a view on some of the things that were happening across the time and across the globe, before coming down to some of those practical steps that are useful for anybody involved in volunteering, and volunteering to think about. 

And you, you, indicated earlier, this is a chapter we want to talk about more about, but we also really wanted to out, if you like, some of those areas that aren’t necessarily spoken about in, in volunteering, some of those negative elements. So, we broke it down in those kinds of chapters that we thought we could, we stand alone, but you could see that journey together. 

And there are probably some really key things that we wanted to leave people thinking about. So, um, volunteer involvement is an example of, of us all as humans. Um, it’s based on relationships. It’s not necessarily always a good thing. And it’s something that if you’re involving volunteers, you need to not only take individual action in what you’re doing, but that reflection and that, Thought and how are we, how are we doing, can we be doing it in a different way or better was important for us. 

Tobi: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s interesting. You took a really fascinating tack on the organization of the book, because it, it You know, a lot of folks would write a book and say, okay, we’re going to do a chapter on recruitment. We’re going to do a chapter on retention. We’re going to do a chapter on data. We’re going to do a chapter, you know, you know, we’re going to, we’re going to do a chapter on strategic planning or program design. 

And this is not that at all. You mentioned your sort of key sort of beliefs or values, or principles around, you know, for example, volunteering isn’t always good. And you basically made those into chapters. Am I correct on that?  

Ruth: That’s right, because there’s already a lot of good practice handbooks and rule books out there. It’s already been done. We weren’t adding value by, by writing that kind of book. In fact, we refer to some of the things that are already out there. So, this was more of a broad background picture to help you start thinking about the themes behind volunteering and to start thinking about what are the basic ingredients that there are, uh,  

Tobi: Yeah. And, you know, really thinking critically about, you know, volunteer involvement and trying to really describe it and open. In the introduction, you recommend an exploration with quote unquote, kind curiosity. And as I mentioned, you include self-reflection activities. Tell us about that kind of curiosity. Why did you feel like that was important to call out?  

Ruth: I feel it gathered from when I was talking about what drives me. I am curious and interested in people and why people think the way they do. And I like to emphasize that it comes from a place of a positive intent. That’s the kind element. So, I’m interested in what makes people think and, and how we might choose as volunteer managers, for example, to concentrate on processes more. 

And I’m doing that from that perspective of. There’s no right or wrong. We’re all trying to do the best that we can in a hectic world and try to make relationships work in the way that they can. And so that’s, that’s the kind element. It just felt like it was an important thing to, to bring in. And for me, I think that’s how Those of us who involve volunteers conduct that, that relationship. 

It is, it is kind of curiosity. It’s not looking for rule breaking or doing the same thing as everybody else has done. It is thinking about how we create that relationship that works.  

Tobi: Yeah, absolutely. I could not agree more. It kind of sets the tone. Your introduction to the book really sets the tone and gives people permission to let go a little bit. Absolutely. Absolutely. The death grip on their belief set, right? 

Ruth: Yes, yeah, that’s how I like to live my life, so I’m glad that that’s coming across.  

Tobi: Yeah, I mean, I’ve, I’ve had people, I remember early on, I wrote some blog posts and people were just completely in opposition to my point of view, and I remember they just piled on me in the comments, and I was just like, what is this? 

I was like, I thought we were supposed to be like, a collaborative, compassionate, like, sector. What, what is this? You know, I mean, I think we can respectfully agree to disagree, and that’s fine. There’s so much, like, exploration as well, and if we’re not willing to adjust our belief set at all, we’re not going to grow, right? 

And we need a safe space to do that. 

Ruth: Yes, definitely. Definitely. And something, when we’re. involving volunteers or communities, that’s, it’s inherently a place where we’re going to be challenged, where we’re going to meet people who’ve got different political beliefs from us, where we’ve got people who think differently and have got other backgrounds, you know, that’s exactly the place where we can’t be hidebound just by the rules and regulations, that’s where we’ve got to be encouraged to think differently. And to recognize and learn from others, and I think that, that is, yeah, that’s the heart of it. That’s why I like being in the volunteer management profession really.  

Tobi: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, modeling that inside your organization as well can help your organization become more of a learning organization. You know, you must be that person who’s willing to question and, and willing to open and change your mind and have that be okay. 

Ruth: Being that kind of person doesn’t mean that you don’t have fierce, strong values yourself. It is that ability to have that strength, but also hold it lightly. 

Tobi: And I think there’s a difference between values, which You know, values come from our families, our communities, our faith, et cetera, and our values don’t change a lot, although they can when we have an epiphany moment, you know? They can, they can evolve, and sometimes they should evolve, but the way we live through those values and the implementation strategies that we choose are twofold different than our values. And I think sometimes people don’t separate those two things. And so, when they, you know, they’ll have a fierce debate over a value, over an implementation strategy, because it reflects their values, but it’s not their value. that’s under attack, right? Their value set. It’s the, or that’s under debate. 

And I think we, we often conflate those two things. So, I think being able, as a leader of volunteers, you know, you are the chief consultant and expert in your organization about volunteer engagement, and you need to lead the way in terms of how the conversation happens. Well, let’s talk about a contentious subject. 

We’ll get right into it. I wouldn’t say contentious, but I would say that there are a variety of definitions for volunteerism, right? I see them in all the folks I work with. They, you know, their organizations have different, I mean, number one, I think it is important for every organization to define what they mean by volunteerism. 

But in the book, you are actually. You decided to provide a definition. First, why is it important to have a precise definition of volunteerism in today’s world? And tell us what your definition is and why you chose it.  

Ruth: It’s important to have a definition and particularly within the book we wanted to be clear, this is what we’re talking about. 

So that’s why we really wanted to have that there. Because otherwise, we’re all talking about different things. We’re all using different words to describe the same things, or sometimes the same words, and we’re thinking of different elements. And that’s part of where we can disagree with each other and take that personally and feel that we’re saying the same thing and not agreeing. 

So, I think it was important for us to get a definition of volunteering right at the beginning. right up front. And our definition was that volunteering is an individual’s activity undertaken by choice, without concern for financial gain, and intended to make a difference outside one’s own family. 

We also put in the book other examples that were common, in common usage, but that was for us, was what we were looking at as volunteering. And it gave us that ability to work with what might be a broader examples of where volunteering or volunteer involvement might fit.  

Tobi: Yeah. And I think it’s interesting, there’s things that would, under your definition, not be considered volunteerism. For example, court ordered community service. Yes. Because that’s not a choice. Even service learning in high school. It’s not a choice if it’s part of your requirements to graduate, right? So that would not include, that would not be considered volunteerism then?  

Ruth: No, not in this definition, the choice, the freedom to make that choice is key in it. 

Tobi: And you talk about not for financial gain. That’s common in most definitions. outside the family, not often used in volunteer definitions. So that’s an interesting one. I find it interesting many other, and you call this out in the book, and you kind of parse out other and discuss and explore other definitions. 

And one of the definitions that’s very, one of the elements of a definition is often included is for the benefit of society. And you intentionally decided not to include that. Tell us a little bit about that. Why did that, why did that, you say, you know what, I don’t want to, we don’t want to include that in our definition. 

Ruth: Yeah, that whole idea of benefit. it’s not necessarily agreed upon. So, if we were going to be thinking about this activity as a, as a benefit, then who’s the person to make that final decision. So, we felt that that inclusion was almost of a benefit, was almost becoming ideologically loaded, which helped us move, move away. 

And we really wanted to have a neutral term to describe the activity of volunteering. Everyone’s got a different perspective on that. benefit to society based on their personal values or their positions or the cultures. So, we wanted to look at that impartial, impartial verb. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, the activity of volunteering is the same, whether I agree with the reasons or the cause that someone wants to give time to. 

So, I mean, if you think sort of an example, I suppose, in the sphere of, you know, reproductive rights, for example. Somebody could be volunteering to help a pregnant person to attend a clinic and somebody else is volunteering to try to close down that center. But both individuals believe that they are doing something for the benefit of society. 

And who’s to say, well, laws, other elements might say that, but when you’re looking at the volunteering, the activity they’re carrying out, they’re both, they’re both volunteering. So, who’s to say which is better.  

Tobi: Yeah, I mean, and we all have our own ideological belief sets. And if we only allow volunteering to be the purview of one side, sooner or later, you know, it’s going to take out half the population, you know, so we have, you know, I love the clarity of that in that definition.  

The other thing you call out is, you know, volunteering beyond simply considered unpaid labor. I’ve often said, you know, volunteers are not just, you know, you drive up to the big box construction store and get some day laborers and pull them into your truck and like drive off. I mean, that’s not, people don’t volunteer because they want to work for free. 

They volunteer because they want to change the world. The motivation is not, I’m looking for a place to give my time for free. It doesn’t even cross the mind of the volunteer. Tell me a little bit about what are the problematic aspects of thinking about volunteerism as simply paid, unpaid labor.  

Ruth: One of the things I’m keen on is to move volunteer involvement away from an HR model. I want to put it in that sphere where people are thinking about that whole range where they can bring their full self to make that difference. And it’s not necessarily led by a top-down expectation that you are providing labor. 

Some of the things that people do as volunteers are more creative. They might be, uh, wanting to support people in, in, in running a choir because they love singing and that’s something that they have found themselves rather than being put into, into a role. So, I think just to move away from thinking of volunteers as solely a resource to fill a gap, whether they have a nice time or not is, is where we probably need to think more widely about how we can be engaging and working with others in the future. 

Tobi: Yeah, and in the book, you really do a good job of really detailing out the different ways people contribute to their communities. You know, you really kind of, you know, you have different specific subsections where you call it out. So, for folks who are listening, they can pick up the book and really start to, oh, I didn’t think about that as volunteering, right? 

I hadn’t considered that part of volunteering. So, you know, yes, there is volunteering in roles that. Are treated as HR and unpaid labor, but there’s, there’s so much more to how people, you know, engage in the community and community involvement in general. So, I love that. The other thing you call out is the definition that is very common, and I’ve used this definition, so I was really, it gave me pause for a minute, of formal versus informal volunteering. What do you think is problematic about that definition?  

Ruth: There’s that that’s linking again towards the traditional volunteer management area of thinking If you’re giving time for me, and I can count you that’s what’s important. Whereas Lots of people are doing lots of different things in different ways. 

So, it felt like it was confusing the issue and not really adding Value some of the, um, the definition to, uh, use within the UK to describe volunteering as formal is volunteering through organizations such as clubs or charities and, uh, informal volunteering being volunteering arranged by volunteers themselves. 

But we can see quite often that lots of volunteers who arrange the volunteering themselves can be quite formal and have rules and regulations and must go through training. And, lots of volunteering that go through the organizations are arranged by volunteers themselves. So it was actually beginning to muddy that conversation about what volunteers and volunteer involving it, and it also excluded a lot of those broader conversations that we really wanted to have, you know, about mutual aid, some of the, some of the community led opportunities where volunteering is happening, and large organizations, I mean Macmillan is exploring how do we Seed responsibility, if you like, to broader community groups and individuals to do things that they need, need to do. And that would therefore be a formal organization enabling informal volunteering. And that’s just a mess.  

Tobi: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I would even say that what would be considered, defined as formal volunteering with an organization can also be quite informal if it’s not organized well, right? And, you know, that, the Time Well Spent study found, you know, volunteers, I’m going to, I’ll link to that if you guys haven’t heard me talk about the Time Well Spent study, I’ve talked about it before we had somebody on, and I’ll link to that. 

Episode, but, you know, they found that volunteers thought within organizations, volunteering could be more organized. So, it’s data driven when I say that I’m not just talking, I think you’re spot on with it being a value loaded kind of one of the real benefits of the book are trying to remove anywhere where there’s sort of value associated positive or negative with the way we’re talking about volunteering, whether it’s the type of role, how we define it, the way we describe it or categorize it. 

I think that that’s throughout, that’s a theme throughout the book where you’re trying to remove this kind of value loading.  

Ruth: Absolutely. It could well be that in your own organization you want to bring that value back and that one might make sense in your way of doing it, but it’s to open people’s eyes to recognize that it’s there. No words are being used in a neutral setting to recognize where it, where it’s coming from to help to inform your practice.  

Tobi: Yeah, absolutely. And I think rather than values, why not link to your mission, you know, and your mission may have vision. Vision and values, many missions do, but really focusing on your mission, I think that’s a cleaner way to look at it, even though it might be value loaded, but not just value loaded for value loaded sake. 

I think, you know, our field is relatively young, and it’s been a bit messy, you know, we really, we don’t even, in the U.S., I interviewed Megan Vixie a few days ago, and we’ll have a podcast on that as well. But they’re working with Alive, they’re working on just trying to figure out what job descriptions and job leveling document. 

So, we don’t even know what job descriptions should be used for leaders and volunteers, what salaries should be offered. So there’s a lot of sort of attempt to sort of give more structure or clarity to this enterprise that is, you know, although it’s been happening till since the dawn of time, I mean, people have been helping each other in clans and communities since the beginning. 

Otherwise, we would not have survived as a species if we didn’t have this either compassionate instinct or learned behavior and or learned behavior. to collaborate, we never would have made it. So, um, it’s been happening forever, but the more within organizations and, you know, sort of more collective, it’s still a little bit messy, I think, and in your book is coming at a really important time to start to try to clarify and, and give us a better picture of what’s happening. 

Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Well, let’s take a pause for my conversation with Ruth Leonard about rethinking community involvement and volunteerism. We will be right back, and we’re going to get into, after the break, about the critical perspectives, the juicy stuff. So don’t go anywhere. We’ll be right back.  

If you’re enjoying this week’s episode of Volunteer Nation, we invite you to check out the Volunteer Pro Premium Membership. 

This community is the most comprehensive resource for attracting, engaging, and supporting dedicated high impact volunteer talent for your good cause. Volunteer Pro Premium Membership helps you build or renovate an effective, what’s working now, volunteer program with less stress and more joy. So you can ditch the overwhelm and confidently carry your vision forward. 

And it’s the only implementation program of its kind that helps your organization build maturity across five phases of our proprietary system, the volunteer strategy success path. If you’re interested in learning more, visit volpro.net/join 

Tobi: Okay, we’re back with a conversation about rethinking community involvement and volunteerism with Ruth Leonard. It’s been such a great conversation so far, Ruth. I’m totally enjoying this. Uh, gang, you got to get your hands on this book. It’s so good. It’s called Volunteer Involvement, an Introduction to Theory and Practice. And it’s not just for folks that are new to the field. It really does help to clarify where we’re at right now. 

Call into question some of the things that we don’t usually talk about. So Ruth, let’s really dive into this. There’s a chapter in the book on critical perspectives and sort of the negative impacts on volunteer or of volunteerism. It’s just so rarely discussed. Why did you feel like this was important? We talked about this earlier, maybe, or maybe the bigger question is volunteerism always good? And are there areas we probably need to be more self reflective?  

Ruth: So, coming at this from the perspective that an activity in which so many people are involved as volunteering, it’s not possible that all only and completely beneficial. 

And we wanted to start thinking about how we could show that. full, broader picture of volunteering to have an open conversation about all sides of volunteering. There’s amazing stuff, and obviously, obviously, because this is my profession, I do think that volunteering is a really good thing and it’s incredibly beneficial for both people who are carrying out that activity and people who are receiving, etc. 

It is. But there’s also stuff that isn’t good, and there’s lots of, you know, Indifferent things going on just for the sake of it. So it felt really important to start openly sharing that information about what doesn’t go as well as we might, as we might hope, as well as all the lovely great things about successes. 

But hearing from the challenges, learning from mistakes, learning about, um, when things go wrong, when there’s misconducts or problems, and exploring some of those negative aspects. sides of volunteering felt like a really important place to start. It’s just some of the concerns of not talking about it or recognizing that they, that some of those negative views or impacts might exist, could be that we’re not really able to understand the barriers to people not feeling like they’re able to get into, into volunteering. 

We could potentially be ignoring some of the negative things that would be, could be impacting on, on volunteers, but we’re not giving a really honest measurement or opportunity to talk about the, the positive elements of, of volunteering. If we solely look at the bias that it’s a good thing. We need to recognize some of those, those more negative elements. 

So we came at it from that, that perspective. And that’s what I thought was important to, to bring out. And I’m glad it resonated with you as being something that’s important, but I’m also mindful of what you, what you’re saying. You said earlier in, in the conversation, completely understand why we don’t do that. 

We’ll spend a lot of time as volunteer management professionals trying to advocate for volunteering, trying to encourage people above us to make those decisions about involving volunteers. So I, I, I really recognize it feels counter to our usual, practice, but I do think it’s important to have a safe space to start exploring, exploring that. And I also think it makes any conversations we have more credible.  

Tobi: Absolutely. You know, I think about representation and equity and inclusion. You can never make progress in those areas without an honest accounting of what’s going on. Like you can’t. You can’t, you can’t like brush it under the rug. You can’t, you know, if bias is at play and it always is in some way, whether it’s inside of us or institutional, you know, racism or bias, if it’s, if there is a power imbalance and there often is when it comes to volunteers, particularly between organizations and volunteers, but also I would say it is at play in some respects in. 

Mutual aid groups, when you have more veteran volunteers that have been around for a while running the show and you have newbies coming in, you know, there, there’s a power imbalance there. So power is always at play when we’re working with people. And so you can’t move forward without being, having an open conversation and an open accounting and being willing to say, all right, well, this is what’s happening. So what are we going to do about it? Right?  

Ruth: Absolutely.  

Tobi: Yeah. And I like that you’re talking about also barriers as an area of self reflection. There’s just so many, you know, you know, vulnerability isn’t a bad thing. You know, it can really make us stronger.  

Ruth: You can’t, you can’t improve without recognizing what hasn’t, what isn’t going right. I think that whole element of continuous improvement needs to have some honest reflection. Yeah.  

Tobi: So good. So good. So gang, if you want to get into it, there are also some really good self reflection questions. I mean, one of the questions in the book is, is volunteerism always good? You know, is it good inherently just because people are helping people? 

I mean, I’ve seen people help people and do things that are extremely destructive, you know, to society, to democracy, to other human beings. I mean, we’ve seen it here in the U. S. You know, physical harm, uh, and in the, in the name of people working towards a collective goal. And in their minds it probably, it’s for the betterment of society, but for, you know, I always think, you know, there is a line in the sand. 

And the line in the sand for me is always when someone’s, when it’s not benefiting, you know. When someone gets hurt, like, you know, whether it’s physically, emotionally, spiritually, then, then that volunteering is not like for the greater good, right?  

Ruth: Yeah, but see, see back to our definition, which didn’t include the greater good for, for almost precisely, precisely that, that reason. 

So some of the things we also talk about are political volunteers. I mean, we can historically look at suffragettes and suffragists and people who may have damaged property and, and people, is that volunteering? Yeah, I think this is, this is the beginning of really interesting, interesting conversations like that, that whole element. 

Tobi: So, how do you like, you know, when you, when you think about your definition, it’s true. Like, would you call, and when you call it the suffragists and the suffragettes? Some were, I can’t remember which was which, the suffragettes. I think the suffragettes were the more, they were more about civil disobedience. 

Is that correct? Suffragettes and suffragists. And one group was more about, you know, one group was about civil disobedience and potentially harming property. And another was about, no, we’re going to work within the system and try to make it happen, right? Try to make the vote happen for women. I think, you know, when you’re trying to launch things like this, you know, you need all hands on deck and using as many strategies as you can. 

But yeah, I mean, I think organizations need to decide for themselves what their ethical framework is, right? And it may be different depending on different organizations.  

Ruth: Yeah, absolutely.  

Tobi: Yeah. Well, you know, this really brings into question, you know, the CCVA has their ethical principles. A volunteer engagement, and there’s quite a bit about the greater good in that. 

So it’d be interesting to have a conversation about that as well. So it’s just calling into question everything, which is I think is a good thing. We need to do this. We need to be self reflective. We need to make it okay to have these conversations.  

Ruth: Yes, exactly.  

Tobi: Yeah. Well, let’s talk about  relationships.You talk about relationships, you know, that we are in a people business. It’s an essential part. How should we, you know, think about collaboration across this complex enterprise of volunteerism? It has so many diverse facets. Is there anything in particular when we think about collaboration that you think is important. 

And after this, we’ll talk about different, I want to talk about matching volunteers. So, we talked about this before we started, but let’s start with collaboration. As you were writing the book, was there anything about collaboration that really came to mind where you thought, you know what, this needs exploration, or this needs to definition, or this is a best practice? 

Ruth: I think that the thing that was coming out time and time again, and there were even, there were even times when I was writing when I thought maybe I’m not an actual volunteer manager because I could see where the elements of volunteer management with a capital M were actually getting in the way of what I believe is the most important thing of involving volunteers, which is building relationships. 

So that gave me some interesting insight into what are the practices that I’m doing in a day-to-day job that are getting in way of building an equal relationship with the people who are, who are giving time because that’s, that is a key thing is starting with building those relationships. 

So, working together to create those links and those connections and that’s where the magic really, really starts. So not solely fitting people into a role, using a role profile as a really helpful starting point to that conversation. And also, I suppose, be really clear, some people are quite happy to come in and do the role and then go home again. 

But it’s also an opportunity to really discuss with Another person with a whole different life, uh, experience what they might want to do and how you could work together to create something that’s, that’s better than you’d started and could be really done in a different way. And I actually think that’s where volunteer management is at its strongest is being able to enable those kinds of, of conversations and to be engaged. 

joint led between the organization that’s involving volunteers and the volunteers themselves and not to put up boundaries because somebody’s coming along with a different idea and your head is so busy with your day job you can’t really think about how to factor it in but really recognizing that is as a volunteer manager professional that is your day job to think about how do we I think. 

Tobi: I like this idea of a shared, a co produced outcome between the leader volunteers or, or whoever’s bringing the volunteer on board or collaborating with, partnering with the volunteer and the volunteer themselves. 

I can hear folks. Saying, well, wait a minute, I have all this work that needs to be done, what, I can’t do this. It can’t be a free for all. But you actually, in the, in, in your book, you break out different levels that I think provides a really great framework for if you were to give folks a menu of options. 

And one of the options is, like, hey, help us get this particular, like, patient’s patient service or befriending or mentoring or whatever the directs, often, often it’s direct service, but it could be like, you know, it could be another type of role, but you, you break them up between initiators, connectors, collaborators, and complimenters. 

And. They’re broken up by levels of sort of autonomy or authority going from, you know, look, I’m just going to follow the whatever you tell me to do to I’m going to totally create my own thing. It’s like a continuum. Tell us a little bit about that and and why you think that’s helpful. 

Ruth: I think that is a really helpful way of thinking about it because that’s also Um something that would help to calm us as volunteer managers down because actually the majority of people Probably fall into the I just want to get on and do so Give me tell me what I need to do and i’ll come out and do it Recognizing that as you’ve just identified the typology of people who are interested in volunteers. 

There’s a first group who are, you say the initiators, they are the people who see an issue in their community and they want to get things done. They’re committed to helping to see that change and they want to They want to do it. They’re really great at getting things done. And there’s another group, which are the connectors. 

So those people are people who are really well networked within a community. And actually they’ve got the contacts, they know which levers to pull, and they’re the ones who can work with initiators to, make that vision a reality because it’s got a great dream and then the connectors will be able to help to bring the community about to make it happen. 

The third group is the associates and actually the associates are probably more closely aligned to within Britain we refer to a civic core which is about nine percent of people who are carrying out half of the volunteering activities. So these are the people who will do most of the stuff that we think about when we think about volunteering traditionally. They’re the ones who step up needed. They, they believe that to be right. And they’re very good at finding the solutions that they want to get involved. And they need to know that what they’re doing is, is useful. And then the fourth group is the complimenters. They’re the people who want to come along, come along on a Tuesday afternoon, do what’s needed. 

Don’t want to do anything more than, and then just do it. Go home everything sorted for them. They’ll do it. They’ll turn up and then they’re able To go and I think thinking about the motor those broader types and motivations of those types can really help to think about, so which are the groups? Who are the people that I’m meeting who are actually wanting to work with me as a volunteer manager to start thinking about what some of the opportunities and offers could be and how much responsibility could I give to that person and then bring in the others, the other complementors to make that happen. 

So, in effect, you as a paid member of staff who is really incredibly busy don’t have to do all of that work. You can be working more intrinsically to help it.  

Tobi: Yeah. Absolutely. And the type of support is different. It doesn’t mean though that if folks are designing programs for you, for example, or pulling people together to get a project done, doesn’t mean that you’re not providing support. 

The kind of support is different. You know, it’s not, uh, I’m going to train you on how to do, you know, this particular, follow this standard operating procedure. It’s more, I might train you, and we do this in the volunteer pro community quite a bit. I’m going to train and provide support, or I’m going to facilitate to help you with your planning of this project, or I’m going to help you with some budget or some resources, or I’m going to be a sounding board when you come up against a challenge or a barrier, it’s blocking progress.  

Ruth: And I suppose, I was just thinking as you were speaking on that note, there are lots of people out there who are volunteers who are probably more highly proficient at all of those kind of things than I might be. So there are people who might be leading huge companies and developing amazing finance systems who, who, who could be better placed than I might be with their skill set. And I don’t think we necessarily use that kind of understanding of what people could be bringing enough.  

Tobi: Yeah, I mean, I’m writing a book on this very topic for volunteer leaders. It’s specifically for volunteers who lead. It’s not for volunteer managers per se. What I find is that folks don’t realize that they have those transferable skills. 

Somehow when they step into a volunteer role, they completely forget that they know how to do all these other things. I’ve seen this with my fellow volunteers, and I’m like, gang, you, you have a PhD. You’ve retired from a You know, a company where you were lead, you were a scientist, you were leading, you know how to run projects, you are a scientist for Christ’s sake, so they, but they don’t like, they don’t make the, you know, so sometimes it’s just reminding people, actually, you do know how to do this, it’s just a different context, sometimes we have to do that, this has been a fantastic conversation, I mean, we could go on and on, but, uh, let me ask just a few final questions, one, which, Is not necessarily, uh, covered in the book, but kind of intimated in the book, sort of opens that door for an evolving future. 

What do you personally think, and what do you think about, or how do you see the role of volunteers evolving in the next, or how do you see the role of community involvement evolving in the next decade?  

Ruth: I think we are, as a sector, becoming more accustomed to recognising that some of the elements, such as social activism, such as mutual aid, such as self involving groups of volunteers, is volunteering. 

And I think that we are. are doing that because I can see large organizations trying to understand how they can leverage that to their benefit. So I’m thinking that the next stage would be around really understanding how we can better enable that. groups of volunteers who want to do things themselves and taking learning from some of those lighter touch ways of involving people without making it really hugely complex but just recognizing that we’re there where people are. 

I think actually one of the things that I shouldn’t say there’s no obviously no good thing about the pandemic at all, except that was in the volunteer management world. It seemed as though we were able to get people involved, less friction, more easily than, than we had before. And we now seem to be putting some of those barriers up. 

So I think really taking the learning from some of what was able to happen and, and, Moving towards a place where volunteers and volunteering is accepted as part of the status quo and not necessarily, as I said earlier, an HR light.  

Tobi: I mean, the pandemic was really a catalyst for community involvement. I remember people, you know, there was websites going up on, you know, how to find test kits. There were people organizing to bring people who were shut into their homes to bring them food. I mean, there was all kinds of stuff going on. Self organizing, right? completely self organizing. People have a compassion gene. We know that. How do we enable in natural disasters? Same thing happens in other natural disasters. 

Communities have to come together. And in rural areas, similarly, you know, I think about fire brigades in the outback in Australia. I mean, people have to come together when this stuff happens because there’s no infrastructure. You know, people aren’t coming for hundreds of miles or kilometers. So yeah, absolutely. 

I’m so excited to see how we can not only enable, but also spark more community involvement to give people confidence that it’s okay to do this and you can do it, right? Yeah.  

Ruth: Yes. And I think that’s the role of volunteer managers is to create the infrastructure and then in some cases get out of the way. So there could be, that, that’s, that’s our place is to help to start things and then not to impinge too much.  

Tobi: Ruth, what are you most excited about in the year ahead? I like to ask every one of my guests this question. Personal, professional does not matter. 

Ruth: Well, I mentioned to you before we started that I’m going to Japan in October. So I’m really looking forward to that on a personal level. You’ve also talked about ethics during this conversation. I’m currently writing an article for the Engage e magazine, that the ethics column there. So that’s, that’s going to be exciting. You’ve Pulled out one of the, the chapters in, in the book that I think is really exciting and hasn’t, hasn’t been talked a lot about, which is some of the negative elements. 

And I do want to give some thinking about, how we explore those, those, those themes and what learnings we can really take. Oh, and now also at the beginning of this conversation, Toby, you gave me that idea of thinking about what can we do to turn this, this book into a real learning exercise and, and, and running it as a weekly book club. Again, anyone who’s interested in doing that with me, I’m more than happy, I would love that.  

Tobi: Yeah. Absolutely. How can people get in touch with you if they’re interested in that, learn more about your work, you know, get, get their hands on some of your future writing, um, and I’ll put some of this. 

I know I have your LinkedIn and your ex email. profiles. I’ll put those in the show notes, but is there any other ways that you recommend folks get in touch with you?  

Ruth: Perfect. And of course the Association of Volunteer Managers website, volunteermanagers. org. uk, I’m available there. So actually, yeah, I think getting in touch via LinkedIn is probably the best way of doing that. And if, when I do anything more, I will definitely come and share it with people like you, Toby, so that you can. Push it on.  

Tobi: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we can maybe have you on again in the future. So Ruth, thank you so much for spending this time with us and more, more over. Thank you for writing this book. 

You know, I’m in the midst of writing a book, so I know how much hard work it is. I know it is a labor of love and it’s not easy. The end result. is amazing. It’s so clear. It helps us really kind of, you know, muck out the stall in a way, you know, like we’ve got a lot of chaos, you know, it’s been confusing. 

People are kind of doing what their, their best, but I think, you know, we’re getting to a point in our field where we’re trying to build clarity. So, I appreciate you being here and I hope to see you again in the future. Gang, if you are a volunteer pro member, we’re going to have some very interesting things coming up in the future. 

If you’re not a volunteer pro member, we’re going to have some interesting promotions coming up. So stay tuned. I’m going to talk about these on the podcast probably shortly. And if you’re on our mailing list, you’ll hear from us. So want to just. Call that out a little bit. And if you found this episode helpful, I hope you’ll share it with a friend. I hope you’ll join us next week. Same time, same place on The Volunteer Nation. Take care, everybody.