178 – 6 Ways to Help Program Volunteers Avoid Compassion Fatigue

September 4, 2025

Episode #178: 6 Ways to Help Program Volunteers Avoid Compassion Fatigue

In this episode of the Volunteer Nation Podcast, Tobi Johnson dives deep into the critical issue of compassion fatigue and secondary traumatic stress among program volunteers. These frontline heroes play vital roles in tutoring, hospice, crisis support and more, but without proper training, boundaries, and support, they risk burnout and emotional harm. 

Tobi shares six practical ways nonprofit leaders can use to support volunteer wellness, from boundary-setting to debriefing practices and resilience training. 

Program Volunteers – Episode Highlights 

• [00:25] – What is Compassion Fatigue? 
• [05:20] – Recognizing the Signs 
• [09:15] – Emotional, Cognitive, and Physical Symptoms 
• [12:57] – Behavioral Changes and Deeper Shifts 
• [15:00] – Strategy #1: Set and Maintain Professional Boundaries 
• [16:11] – Strategy #2: Clear Policies on Client Boundaries 
• [22:15] – Strategy #3: Regular Debrief and Reflection Opportunities 
• [26:26] – Strategy #4:  Ongoing Skills and Resilience Training 
• [27:24] – Strategy #5: Access to Emotional Support and Resources 
• [29:40] – Strategy #6: Watch for Stress and Offer Respite Breaks 
• [32:22] – Final Thoughts 

Program Volunteers – Quotes from the Episode

“There’s no reason people should be suffering through their volunteering. That is the savior complex that we do not want to support.” 

“It really is an ethical imperative that volunteer-driven organizations take the emotional wellness of their volunteers seriously, especially their direct service program volunteers, to ensure that their service is not negatively affecting their wellbeing.” 

Helpful Links

• Volunteer Management Progress Report  
• VolunteerPro Impact Lab  
• Volunteer Management Fundamentals Live!  
• Volunteer Nation Episode #035: 6 Ways to Prevent Burnout in Nonprofits  

Contact Us

Have questions or suggestions for the show? Email us at wecare@volpro.net.

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Episode #178 Transcript: 6 Ways to Help Program Volunteers Avoid Compassion Fatigue 

Tobi: Welcome to another episode of the Volunteer Nation podcast. I’m your host, Tobi Johnson. And I’d like to talk about how to help program volunteers avoid compassion fatigue. Our program volunteers are the volunteers who offer direct services to the people we serve. Sometimes it’s in tutoring, sometimes it’s in hospice, sometimes it’s friendly visitor programs. 

Whatever it is, it’s a challenging job. Especially for folks who’ve not been trained on how to be a social worker, and lot of the ways that we are resilient as nonprofit workers is we have been provided training and support. I remember the first time I started working in a very intense direct service program where we were helping homeless youth. 

Get off the streets and get into jobs and get housing and all of that, and we were witness to a lot of pain and suffering. We were also working with people who had relied on their wits and their ability to manipulate in some ways, no value judgment there, but folks who. Had to figure out, had to live by their wits on the streets. 

And so sometimes that meant manipulating others so that they could survive. And so, working with populations like that can be very challenging, especially for inexperienced volunteers. So, I want to talk about some challenges to compassion fatigue and what are the things that we can do to make sure volunteers have healthy boundaries? 

And are resilient in these so important roles. It really is an ethical imperative that volunteer driven organizations take the emotional wellness of their volunteers, especially their direct service program volunteers seriously to ensure that their service is not negatively affect. Their wellbeing. 

That is an ethical imperative. That’s something we need to take really seriously, and if you have direct service program volunteers that aren’t really getting, they, maybe they get training at the very beginning but aren’t getting much support after that, I can guarantee you that some of them may be suffering. 

So, I want to also talk about what are the signs of compassion fatigue and particularly secondary PTSD. This could not be more important than for program volunteers who are responsible for directly providing services to the public. These frontline volunteers are often faced with client crises and circumstances that they may not have been prepared to handle. They may not have imagined that they would come up against these challenges that clients are facing, or they weren’t ready or didn’t understand how that was going to affect them emotionally. They may believe that, that they’re responsible for serving every client problem and they may take their volunteer work home with them. 

These are all recipes for both burnout and acting out. On the part of our volunteers. I can remember when I started working with homeless youth, the kinds of impact it had on my psyche and the work I had to do to in some ways compartmentalize so that when I went home, I wasn’t worrying about people. I wasn’t taking the stress home with me because that didn’t help me continue to do my job. 

Well, being burned out and worrying about people is not. A way to help people get through their circumstances and find a better way. I had to learn, and luckily, I learned from some very well trained and wise Master of Social Work staff, and we had at our organization, we had exceptional training and support when crises occurred, and they inevitably did in our organization. 

So, I felt like I got a firsthand knowledge. It’s almost like I got. A degree in social work when I wasn’t a social worker, when I started. So, it was so helpful to me. And over the years when I’ve worked in direct service and I’ve led direct service volunteers and trained them; I’ve become increasingly aware of how in some ways nonprofits are really letting them down. 

We’re not providing the kinds of support. I remember back in five, six years ago, I was writing blog posts about a volunteer boundary setting, et cetera. So today I want to talk about this. I want to see how we can help our volunteers. You can also check out Volunteer Nation, episode 35, 6 Ways to Prevent Burnout in Nonprofits. 

But today, I want to specifically talk about our program volunteers. So, let’s kick it off with a little bit of grounding. First, secondary PTSD is real. It’s often called secondary traumatic stress, STS or vicarious trauma. It’s a condition that can develop when someone is repeatedly exposed to trauma, stories, suffering, or distress of others, even if they aren’t directly. 

Experiencing the traumatic events themselves. Volunteers also can be triggered through their activities. Some of the things they’re witnessing may bring up past trauma that they’ve personally experienced. So, we must be careful and supportive of our volunteers for program volunteers, especially those in direct service roles like crisis support. 

Tutoring survivors working in shelters, helping newcomers. This exposure can accumulate over time and cause symptoms like Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder or PTSD. So, it’s important not only to provide these services to our volunteers around support and training, but also to make sure that we’re matching volunteers with roles that they can manage emotionally and by providing them that training and ongoing support. 

So sometimes this means that. We’re working with volunteers to understand if they’ve had similar traumas in the past and how they’ve worked through those traumas. So, let’s say you have folks that are tutoring kids in foster care. And maybe that volunteer was in foster care and that’s why they’re interested in doing the work. 

And often that’s the case. Our volunteers have experienced, have lived experience with some of the things that our clients are experiencing and they want to help. But what have they done to get through that? And how long ago was that experience? If they just left foster care three years ago? Are they prepared and have they thought about. 

How that work might impact them. Now, it doesn’t mean we’re not making those matches, but we’re really digging in a little bit to figure out whether they have managed or dealt with this trauma and that we’re not imparting greater harm. So, we’ve got to think about matching, but we also think once we match people, we decide that the role is appropriate for them. 

Then we’ve got to. Make sure we’re providing those supports along the way so that they can continue to thrive. And really avoid that compassion fatigue and even more so the post-traumatic stress or a secondary traumatic stress or vicarious trauma, because we’re human beings and we have mirror neurons, and we feel things. 

Nobody is a robot at work, whether you’re a paid staff or volunteer, it’s just that paid staff are often better trained to and equipped to manage these things. Not always though, I’ve come across staff who are not setting boundaries, et cetera. And this maybe you, maybe you’ll, you might benefit from this if you’re a leader of volunteers or an executive director. 

So. For those of you who are leaders and those of you who are volunteer managers and leaders, executives, et cetera, let’s really start to take this seriously because I don’t want us to do harm to people who are trying to help. So if you are wondering if secondary traumatic stress or vicarious traumas happening to volunteers, there are certainly signs, and you might, some of these are very interesting because sometimes I think we assign these signs or symptoms to a volunteer’s attitude or their loyalty or their ability to really support our mission when it might be the signs of vicarious traumas. Let me share some of these so you can think about how you might diagnose, even though you’re not a therapist. And of course, if, if you have therapists on staff, this is a good thing to talk to them about, but. 

Here are some emotional cognitive signs, intrusive thoughts or mental images about clients’ experiences, even outside of volunteering. So, some of these we want to have our volunteers check in with us. It might be doing a pulse check survey, or it might be asking people heightened anxiety or worry, especially related to the safety of clients or others. 

Yes. Difficulty concentrating or making decisions, emotional numbness or feeling detached. I remember feeling that way. I remember there’s a point where things were just dull. Things just felt dull. And then I had to think on that and go, okay, what are you bringing home? Are you experiencing? And, and when you start to label it and name it, you can start to manage it. 

Irritability or emotional outbursts that aren’t appropriate to a situation. Interesting. You ever seen those in your direct service program Volunteers. Okay. Physical signs. Volunteers might be experiencing sleep disturbances, like insomnia or nightmares, fatigue, or a lack of energy despite rest, headaches, muscle tension, stomach upset. 

They might have a startle response. Be easily startled by noises, movements, or sudden changes. We’ve gotta be on the lookout for changes in behavior. Some other behavioral signs withdraw from others, including fellow volunteers or clients, avoidance of situations, conversations or assignments that might trigger. 

Some memories, increased absenteeism or last-minute cancellations. When volunteers are ghosting you, are they ghosting you? If they’ve been reliable in the past, if they’ve been consistent with their volunteering and they suddenly stop, maybe it’s because of vicarious trauma and then loss of motivation or reduced interest in volunteering. 

Then there are some deeper shifts that might happen in folks. Loss of faith in humanity and or feelings of hopelessness. Our work is not easy, and when we work directly with clients, the clients make the decisions about the changes in their life. We just support them and sometimes it takes them a long time. 

Sometimes they never make those changes and make those decisions, and that’s something to we must accept, and we have to help our volunteers accept that. Not everybody is going to be helped, but that can lead to a type of cynicism or bitterness towards the systems and leaders, even the clients or the organization. 

And then even questioning of personal values during due to the intensity of stories heard or witnessed. Now, I’m going to put a pin in this one for a minute. I want to, I’m going to drill down on this one for a minute. Sometimes our questioning of our personal values or our biases is a good thing. Yeah, like when we witness things or come into contact the in with people that are different than us, then maybe it’s a good idea that we delve into that a little bit deeper. 

Sometimes there’s some worldview shifts that are positive and healthy, and sometimes they’re not. You’ve gotta talk with that, volunteer to figure that out. So those are some things to think about and see just. Consider, do you have any volunteers who are doing intense work for you and are they experiencing any of these things? 

So, we’ve got to keep up with folks. So, let’s talk about if we do believe or to prevent that compassion fatigue or vicarious trauma. They’re not the same thing. Compassion fatigue. Vicarious trauma is a little bit more intense than compassion fatigue, but let’s talk about six ways to help our program volunteers thrive. 

I want to talk about practical ways with examples to help these direct service program volunteers stay energized, avoid burnout, and find the joy in their work repeatedly. Because that’s what resilience is all about, is being able to maintain that focus and joy in our work, one way is to help volunteers set and maintain professional boundaries. 

Like Job one, when we’re working with program volunteers, they’re crucial for maintaining healthy relationships and preventing ethical dilemmas because when volunteers start stretching and coloring outside the lines, then we have more ethical dilemmas. We want to ensure the wellbeing of both volunteers and those they serve. 

That’s why boundaries are important and key aspects of setting and maintaining professional boundaries really include defining roles, respecting co confidentiality, communicating clearly, and setting realistic expectations right from the beginning. So, we want to help volunteers set their own boundaries and prevent overextension emotional exhaustion and enroll confusion. 

So, there’s some things that you can train volunteers on right when they get started as a program volunteer. And one is to help program volunteers understand what professional boundary setting is and how transgressing boundaries can harm clients. Sometimes, for example, if we’re working with young people, depends on the nature of the program and how long we’ll have a relationship with that young person. 

If it’s a limited time, then if we are acting like that youth’s friend as a volunteer, when the program’s over and we. Stop the relationship. They may take that as an abandonment. And for youth in many of our programs, they’ve already been abandoned by adults in the past. It’s important for volunteers to understand that volunteers who love too much also harm the people that they’re working with. 

There is such a thing as quote unquote, well, I call them volunteers who love too much. You want to help volunteers understand the warning signs of boundary transgression and how it’s impacting them and their clients. You want to provide them some scripts for how to manage tricky situations. Now, they don’t need to use your scripts necessarily. 

They can create their own, but I find that with boundary setting, what’s helpful is to know what to say in the moment. And so, they need to practice these as well. So, here’s an example in your volunteer orientation, you can coach program volunteers on how to say, I can’t promise that, but I can connect you with staff who can help when a client requests something that’s beyond their role. 

So, help them learn how to say no with grace. That’s what boundary setting is all about. Okay? The second way to help program volunteers thrive is to set clear policies on client boundaries. So, one is to help. Volunteers set and maintain those boundaries. The other is to give them backup and cover for those boundaries. 

As I said, exceeding boundaries can do more harm than good by eroding trust and confidence, sometimes in in the volunteer’s ability to do the job well, they’re wondering if they’re not clear boundaries and policies. They’re not sure if their boundary setting is on point or not, so we want to make sure program volunteers have the backup. 

Of established policies so they can point to them. So, there are a few different types of policies you might set boundaries on. One is gift giving and receiving. People who are grateful for the support we’re providing, often want to bring us gifts. Sometimes it’s handmade things, often it’s food and or flowers or whatever it is. 

And our policy was always to be appreciative and then to let everybody know that we were going to share that gift with the rest of the team. So, you’re always acting as if you’re, you are accepting that gift on behalf of the team. Because if you accept it on the behalf of yourself or on behalf of yourself, you are setting up a relationship with that client that could be viewed by the client as a friendship. 

And we’re not friends with, again, depending on the program, there are some programs like Big Brothers, big Sisters, bigs and Littles are friends for life. So that’s a different kind of program model, but we want to be clear. Or if there is a gift giving policy, what’s the limit? For example, volunteers to gift give to their clients. 

Okay. Friendships and dating. It should go without saying but dating a client as a volunteer is not usually the way to go. Right. It’s friendship is difficult to define and you’re in the business of building relationships. So, this can be very, there’s an art to this, but it’s also, you can also set clear policies like, hey, you will not have a relationship with a client that we serve volunteers. 

I’ve had volunteers who are interested in another volunteer. For dating and they continued to N nag that person, and I had to step in at some point. They kept asking them out repeatedly. They kept declining and at some point, the volunteer said, hey, I’m really tired of being hassled, and I didn’t blame her. 

Right. Think about in your context, what boundaries might be there. Another boundary is social media. Should volunteers be friends with the clients on social media? When are volunteers expected to respond to social media, direct messaging, et cetera? Should volunteers be talking about clients on social media? 

No, they should not. So, there’s lots of boundaries around social media that you might want to. Put together. I don’t recommend that people are friends on social media. Again, depending on the context of the program, and then work-life balance. Volunteers do need to set boundaries on what they can and can’t accomplish, and they need to be able to communicate that. 

So that’s something that you want to train volunteers on when and how to communicate their boundaries of time and availability with any of these, if volunteers are starting to feel stretched, thin, or overworked, or feeling like volunteering feels like a job. A boundary is probably being transgressed in some way. 

So, you want to work with that volunteer to explore what that might be. Now I’ve got a few more ways that we can help our program volunteers avoid compassion fatigue, avoid vicarious trauma, or manage it when it’s, it pops up. So, let’s take a quick break from my top tips and don’t go anywhere. I’ll be right back. I’ve got three more for you.  

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Okay, we’re back with my top tips for helping. Program volunteers thrive and really stay resilient. That’s really what we’re about here. Number three. The third way to help program volunteers thrive is to provide regular debrief and reflection opportunities. 

Sometimes just getting things off your chest helps diffuse the ticking time bomb. Right. Direct service roles expose volunteers to emotional, stressful, or complex situations from time to time, depending on the organization in some respects. For example, crisis hotlines are exposing people to these kinds of situations daily when they volunteer, so processing these experiences can help those volunteers diffuse and also prevent compassion fatigue. It can help normalize and help them normalize and not internalize that these events are not happening to them. They’re happening to the clients, and we are here as a person who wants to stay healthy because if we’re not healthy, we won’t be able to help. 

So, we want to stay emotionally healthy if volunteers are part of a particularly stressful interchange. Sometimes they’re not even able to process what they’re feeling. They can’t name their feelings, or they don’t feel like they have a right to feel something because that client is worse off than they are. 

There is a bit of a savior complex going on with some volunteers, and I’m not saying that’s necessarily, it’s just people are like, well, this person has it much harder than I am, so they have a right to yell at me and I will feel anxious, but that’s okay because they’ve got a very stressful life. Well, no, that’s called bullying and it’s not okay. 

I would often coach my volunteers on how to discontinue a conversation or how to set a boundary and say, Hey. We can’t have a constructive conversation. If you continue to yell, if you continue to yell, we’ll have to reset and talk another time, or I’ll have to transfer you to another person to talk to. 

Can we continue? You know, so you’re giving that client the option, the choice as to whether they’re going to choose not continuing or choose to continue. It’s on them to moderate their behavior. It’s not on the volunteer to moderate their behavior. So, that’s a smart way of, of also, you know, really thinking about how we are working with our volunteers, especially when those are stressful. 

What happens after that event? That’s when we really must start thinking about debriefing and when there are stressful events that happen. For example, I was working in an organization where one of our clients committed suicide and it was. Just devastating for everybody, whether you knew that client or not. 

We cared about the people we served, and so our main director of programs did debrief with every department to help people process their emotions. And these debriefs really helped everybody stay sort of in the moment and process their grief. So sometimes there’s group debriefings, sometimes it’s just something that’s part of your program. 

Like after a tutoring shift, you could hold a 10-minute group debrief where volunteers share wins, challenges and questions in a safe, supportive environment. So, this reflection isn’t always. About something as stressful as suicide. It maybe we’re reflecting on how we’re moving, how we’re making progress forward. 

So, you kind of want to balance this with wins and challenges when you’re doing these debriefing. There are also ways to, for volunteers to do this together as sort of an end of the day ritual where just sharing how the day went. So, let’s look at. Our fourth way to help program volunteers thrive, and that is to offer ongoing skills and resilience training. 

When volunteers feel competent and equipped, their stress levels drop and their confidence rises. Confidence is something that volunteers don’t automatically bring with them when they’re in a new environment. Even though they may have the skills, they don’t realize that those skills transfer to a nonprofit space. 

So, you want to help them learn. How to be resilient. One of the things you can teach them is how to navigate conflict with de-escalation techniques, as well as safety training. What happens if there’s something unsafe that happens? You want to give them permission to say no and terminate an engagement and model how to do it. 

As I just talked about on the tip, be before you might do quarterly workshops on active listening, trauma informed care, or de-escalation, as I said, tailored to the populations that you serve. So. What are de-escalation techniques for folks who have dementia? What are de-escalation techniques for youth and young adults? 

Those are different techniques, so we want to help our volunteers become confident. Another way, our fifth way to help our program volunteers thrive is to ensure that they have. Access to emotional support and resources. So beyond just the simple debriefing, volunteers need to know they have somewhere private to turn if the work gets heavy. 

So most, again, are not trained social workers, so they may need extra support from a professional. Even therapists need therapists, right? It’s easy to get drawn into people’s drama. It’s just how we are as humans. We get involved emotionally. So, you want to make sure that your volunteers, particularly your program volunteers, your direct service volunteers have access to a trained professional with whom they can have a private conversation. 

And anytime anybody feels that they’re seeing signs in a volunteer; they can refer that volunteer to that professional. And in some cases, if you’re the volunteer manager or the supervisor, you may require that they talk to that professional. Depending on the level of behavior you’re seeing, you want to make sure people stay healthy, right? Emotionally, spiritually, physically, in some cases ’cause stress can impact us physically. You might provide an open-door policy with a designated staff liaison. You can also share mental health resource lists and check in individually after emotionally charged client interactions. And maybe it’s part of your policy, right? 

That volunteers raise their hand and there’s somebody they can go to. It’s important for people to provide some support, and it’s also important for those trained professionals to also set boundaries on the amount of support they can offer. There’s debriefing, there’s checking in, there’s assessing where this person is at. 

They’re listening actively to their stories. They’re providing some support and suggestions if needed, but there’s also a point where that trained professional knows. If that volunteer is at a point where they need mental health support, that they’re going to refer them to mental health support. You know, that’s not always easy. 

That’s why we need a trained professional to do that work. Right? Alright, number six. Tip number six of how to help program volunteers thrive. Be on the lookout for signs of stress and offer respite breaks. Taking time away either. For a few minutes during a shift or even a few months break from their work can restore energy, perspective and enthusiasm for volunteering. 

It’s a good idea. Let’s say your volunteers are working in a hospice or working, I’m sorry. Well. Let’s say working in a hospice and going from room to room, just checking in. Then make sure they have a scheduled break. Similarly, if you have volunteers working in a crisis line, make sure they take a break. 

And often these volunteers, particularly in crisis lines, they’re working from home in their home office or in their home and. You need to remind them to take breaks and make sure they’re not taking on too much. And if the work is emotionally intense, we want to make sure volunteers can raise their hand and say, hey, I need a moment, and we need to make that okay. 

We also can offer short-term leaves of absence without penalty. Or arrange a temporary role transfer from the frontline client work to behind-the-scenes support to give them space to recharge. So, we need to make it okay. There’re no reason people should be suffering through their volunteering. Again, that is the savior complex that we do not want to support. 

Where people think they are superheroes and their job as a volunteer is to save other people. That is not our jobs. Of anybody’s. Our job is to help provide resources and support in generally in direct service. And our job is not to fix things for people. We provide resources and support so that folks can make changes in their own lives, and we need to reiterate this. 

Repeatedly and be on the lookout for that savior behavior. For example, giving folks that offering respite breaks. We might, as a friendly visitor program, offer a two-week break by policy every quarter for program volunteers to rest, recover, and reset. So, we might set up like, you’re on, you can volunteer for this many weeks, and then you take two weeks off. 

Then you volunteer for this many weeks, and then you take two weeks off. As you can see, there’s, there are lots of ways to help our direct service volunteers avoid that compassion fatigue, but even more, uh. Not experience vicarious trauma, or if they do have a way to process it and heal from it. This is not what we want our community supporters to have to go through. 

But sometimes it does happen, and so we must be ready to see when it’s happening, help people get through it and make sure they’re thriving and they’re volunteering. I hope this has been helpful. If you’re interested in learning more about how to set up volunteer programs for success, supervisory skills, our entire volunteer management success path, how to engage volunteers, how to plan for volunteerism, how to plan for training, especially if you’re working with direct service volunteers. 

I feel like it’s essential that we have very solid volunteer programs in place, but maybe. You’re new to the sector or new to the job, or maybe you’ve been on for a while and you’re just kind of struggling, you’re not happy with where your organization is at, and you’d like to learn more skills. You’d like to have a solid action plan. 

If so, I invite you to join us inside the volunteer management fundamentals course. On September 16th, I’ll be kicking off a five-week coaching program called Volunteer Management Fundamentals Live. So, everyone that’s right, everyone of the 727 people who have taken this self-paced course so far, and anyone who enrolls between now and the start of the program will get access to these five coaching calls and this program. 

So, we’re going to set up a pop-up community. We’re going to have five live pro coaching calls, and we’re going to run from mid-September to mid. October, starting on September 16th, and I’ll be leading all five coaching calls. We did this with our Volunteer management supervision course, and it worked so well that I’m doing it again with the Volunteer Management Fundamentals course, but we’re calling it Volunteer Management Fundamentals live for this cohort that we’re doing this fall. If you are a Volunteer Management Fundamentals course student, you are welcome to join this cohort for free. I will be putting information inside the course. If you haven’t joined the course yet, now’s the time and it’s at no extra cost. 

We’re doing the live cohort at no extra cost, so it’s just the same fee as the Volunteer Management Fundamentals scores. But you also get access to the popup community and these live coaching calls. So, I’m really excited about the opportunity to offer people just in time advice on what’s happening in their volunteer programs. 

You know, these group coaching calls, we have great conversations about things. So, if you’re preparing direct service volunteers or volunteers in general and you want to create a solid program. We have five modules across our five pillars of our volunteer strategy success path that are aimed to give you exactly the information you need to transform your efforts and to help you be more confident in your role. 

So, if you want to learn the core foundation so you’re not stuck spinning your wheels and you want momentum to get off the ground. Join us. If you haven’t enrolled in the course yet, go to volpro.net/begin. Sign up before September 16th and we are ready to welcome you in with open arms and we’re going to have a really good time this year. 

I’m excited. This is the first time I’ve done this with the Volunteer Management Fundamentals course, except for the very first time when we offered it. So, this is a unique opportunity to commiserate a little bit with fellow peers and to learn our best practices. Alright everybody, so I hope you’ll join us and thank you for joining us for this episode of The Volunteer Nation. 

I want to give a special shout out to our regular listeners. I have been. Traveling all summer, and I’ve been meeting people all over who are regular listeners to this podcast, so it’s exciting to meet you all in person, and I’m just so grateful that you tune in in every week if you found this episode helpful. I hope you’ll share it with a friend and give us a rating and a review next week. I’ll see you again. Same time, safe place on the Volunteer Nation. Take care everybody.